Dillian Whyte vs Lucas Browne Scorecard by Gold

scorecard by GOLD



Dillian Whyte

Lucas Browne

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Gold's picture

Browne was surely juicing before, he looked like absolute garbage here. Whyte did what he had to, nice highlight KO for him.

Champion97's picture

You must have hated this, Browne was cut up, knocked out cold, given oxygen, no less worryingly than David Price, the biggest difference is Browne had no success, and Price hurt Povetkin, was very competitive.

Was this a dangerous mismatch and a 99/1 fight?

Gold's picture

This fight was one sided but it was not too bad from a viewers perspective. Whyte was surprisingly good and Browne was surprisingly bad. I was pretty worried for Browne for a moment, that was a very ugly knockout and his corner should have stopped the fight earlier. No one knew Browne got knocked out clean by Del Boy a week before this fight and no one knew before the weigh-in he would be in such terrible shape without steroids. Browne went into the fight undefeated having knocked out Chagaev so some gave him a chance to win. Where Povetkin is a top contender and we all knew Price is terrible with a glass chin and never made it outside of the domestic level. They are completely different circumstances. Using the same logic, you must think Judah was very competitive with Mayweather, after all, he hurt Floyd and won rounds like Price versus Povetkin right?

Champion97's picture

Haha, thought this was coming.
What matters?
What we all thought before the fight?
What we find out in the fight?
The different circumstances are what happened before the fight, irrelevant. I get that you think Price being should have been prevented by th fight not happening, whereas Browne being beaten like that wasn't seen coming, but boxing isn't managed like that, I mean, sometimes underdogs get shots, and it isn't always about levels, if that makes sense, you are like a robot who likes to quantify fights, hey, could be a lot stupider for sure, but don't underestimate the value and positive aspects of an opportunity in boxing, you can't just combine viewers' logic into a computer and call a fight based on calculation, boxing is a mental thing too, understand how so e fighters have a better fighter brough out of them when they step up, and that's why Price did better than you thought he would

Price is not terrible, evidence? Your favourite words "domestic level", sorry how many conntry titles have you won?? Price was a British and Commonwealth champion, Sam Sexton and Matt Skelton are good at British level, Price is not world level, damage was inflicted from past defeats, but he was good enough to hurt Povetkin and be competitive as I've said, so he can't be that bad.

Bottom line, and I will satisfied if you admit this
This was not the mismatch you thought it would be and was not 99/1
Price did better than you thought he would
Wilder vs Stiverne II was worse
In terms of the pattern of the fight, Whyte vs Browne was more one sided, in terms of the finish, both were brutal.
There is only so bad a fight can be when the underdog you crap all over, has size, age, power on his side, and the other guy can be hurt.

What registers as competitive to you? There is a difference between a competitive fight, and a close fight, Mayweather vs Judah, good example, Thurman vs Guerrero! Groves vs Rebrasse, Not close fights, competitive fights. Jacobs gave Golovkin a close fight, and the fact that it was competitive is self explanitory, but Murray and Brook gave Golovkin competitive fights that weren't close.

From round 5-11, Mayweather vs Judah wasn't competitive, ok, that's the majority, but you can argue there is more to say for a competitive round than a round which isn't competitive, and rounds 1-4, plus 12, very close.

Funny that we are having another discussion, I just put that there as a mickeytake.

You were right and I was wrong about the business related dispute when I suggested was it Lomachenko vs Beltran
You clearly have a lot more historic knowledge than me
I was right about the discussion about weight
I was right about how much you can judge a fighter based on struggles in past fights

Gold's picture

What we know before the fight often influences on what happens in the fight itself. In what world is getting sparked a week before a fight irrelevant to the actual fight itself? Calling David Price who had never beaten an opponent anywhere near Povetkin's level an underdog is a disservice, he was much more than that. He absolutely did not deserve that opportunity and would not have gotten it if his name was not "David Price". According to Lennox Lewis, Price did not seize the opportunity and try to become a better version of himself.

How many country titles I have won is irrelevant, David Price is a professional boxer, I am not. Talking about domestic opponents he has faced in order to make him seem as if he has a resume proves enough about how good Price is.

I am done talking about Price, he is not relevant at all anymore. Whyte vs. Browne was bad but we didn't know about the outside factors that certainly effected Browne's performance, we knew everything there was to know about Price going into this.

Exactly, you have proven my point. Mayweather vs. Judah was not competitive because Floyd shut him down after four rounds and only gave up the twelfth because he already had it won and was showboating. It was competitive until it wasn't. Same with Povetkin vs. Price. People knew Judah had terrible ring IQ and Floyd had great ring IQ which helped to decide the fight. Everyone knew Povetkin had a good chin and Price had a terrible chin which helped to decide the fight.

You were very wrong about the weight conversation, but you shifted the argument and I can only explain my point so many times. You were right to an extent about struggles in past fights, but there has to be context to each fight to determine how much someone can judge a performance.

Champion97's picture

Yeah yeah, but here's the thing pal, it doesn't always! And it didn't in this scenario! I didn't mean that was irrelevant but it is sparring! The only thing you could say is that he sustained outright physical damage in whatbwas sparring gone wrong, but apart from that, another mistake you guys who think you know more than you do, make, you overestimate the significance of sparring as information.

You bullshitter man, don't sit there amd shit all over a guy with heart to keep getting in the ring! We can do this all day, yes he did!!

A lot of fighters have issues which prevent them from putting in the hours!! Man, you must HATE Amir Khan, Tyson Fury, David Haye and all these guys who have 0 fights for years! You wouldn't even have mentioned that if you weren't against Price.

You are an absolute excuse machine! Always something for you to hide behind! Don't sidetrack!
We'll do this again,
Povetkin vs Price was not as one sided as you thought!
Whyte vs Browne and Wilder vs Stiverne II were worse!
Admit it!

Ok, that's a fair point, but beyond the facts, that's just you describing it as one sided as bst you can, you are pushing to make your case, you could just as easily be biased for Judah and say he took the early lead, and won the last round, that was a competitive fight, I would say, throughout? No. Povetkin doesn't have a good chin, and if he does, then all the more praise for Price, he hurt Povetkin! You are talking absolute BS!

I was right! You are stubborn, and you don't know certain aspects of boxing anything like as much as you think you do, doesn't the clear irritation, length of comments, level of detail tell you something about my confidence that I am right, I admitted when you were right, when I'm wrong, I admit it!

Here's you
1) what do you weigh now? In the fight?
2) what did you weigh at the weigh in?

It should be the other way around?
You never answered my questions, I'll get to the point!
Why is the weight categorised based on the weigh in? Why not have the official weights minutes before the fight?
You continued to be stubborn and stick to your points to defend your argument which was wrong, and completely dodged a question, put it this way.
You vs Me, I'm a career 122 lb, you started at 115, you have been dominating 118 for years, but you are not a weight disadvantage at all? Not a significant disadvantage?, here's you, 'no, because I've said 100 times, I've fought weighing 130 lbs many times, just as much as you weigh during fights', ok, well I'm telling you now, that is not how it works, not just the boxing system, but the whole topic, but to make a simpler point, Gold, how do you explain that you have never fought anything more than a 120lb before (let's say you fought a guy who failed weight and had to pay you), and apart from that one fight, never more than 118, but you don't have a disadvantage hitting and being hit by a 122 lb who has competed at this weight his whole career? Answer me that!

Gold's picture

That is incredibly dishonest to state that being knocked out in sparring one week before a fight does not affect performance. I am not talking about that Derrick Chisora was winning rounds off of him in sparring, I am talking about the actual physical damage being knocked out does that decreases punch resistance.

If I showed you the resume of Price without his name on it, there is no way that you would say he deserved a shot at a mandatory position versus Povetkin.

You are just making excuses for Price, we don't know if he did have outside issues or not. If there were legitimate outside issues I doubt Lennox would have said what he said, he has nothing to gain from that. Khan doesn't seem to try to improve his defense either but he was fun to watch at least unlike Price. Fury has other outside the ring issues like his mental health, I agree he is nothing right now until he has fights. Haye is close to done but it is clear he still cares about the sport, he shows up in great shape every fight. You notice I do go after guys like Thurman who sit around and do nothing right?

He took the lead early but got outpointed easily after Mayweather made his adjustments, as I said Judah only won the last round because Mayweather gave it to him. That is good that you don't believe a fight like that was competitive, but my point also transfers to Povetkin vs. Price. Prime Povetkin took prime Wlad's best shots and made it to the end of the fight. As I said before, Povetkin is declining and Price landed a weak knockdown on him. Povetkin was doing fine, he can weather a storm.

Here is what I look at in weights:

What shape is the boxer in before the weight cut?
Can they make the weight at the weigh in?
If they can make the weight, most importantly how much usable size can they put on between the weigh-in and the bout?

It is categorized that way because they used to have same day weigh-ins. They don't have them anymore because it is dangerous to cut weight and fight on the same day, and same day cancellations are very bad. An in-between method is what the IBF had with same day rehydration checks but they don't do those anymore to my knowledge. You shifted the point from who is the bigger man, Horn or Crawford, to who is more experienced at the Welterweight, Horn or Crawford. If I weigh 130 and have a good build that I should be able to match you in physicality in the ring. The point I am making is not about punch resistance, but in ring size and ability to apply it. To make a counterpoint against what you said, Crawford has fought guys at or above the actual in-ring weight of Horn such as Diaz. The weight classes now do not really represent what the fighters are in the ring.

Champion97's picture

You love the sound of your own voice, but you didn't read my comment properly, because that is not what I said. You were bound to find some excuse, but I'm not going to drain my brain by explaining away your excuses.

You're saying I'm biased, there is an argument for that, but understand this, boxing is about opportunities, sometimes, longshots work out, not often, but if Conor McGregor can earn that kind of money (and do not reply with analysis on that scenario!) With an 0-0 record, Price deservesd a shot, he has shown potential even in his losses, most of the time, he was beaten by drug cheats, and here's something else, desire can make levels less relevant when push comes to shove, you saw Price in the ring, that was a guy who wanted to win so bad he would have won at all costs. Your argument would be good if it was a world title fight, but it wasn't, so to get a world title shot, he would have had to have beaten Povetkin.

Exactly, and you are doing the opposite! We don't know! Oh come on, pal, Lewis hasn't worked with him in years, I could easily say that's why Lewis went easy in the article, and didn't say anything until now, man, as I've said, you don't know what people go through. The fact that you are clinging to your argument and you are picking on David Price, unnecessarily, is made clear by the fact that you MAKE EXCUSES for Haye, Khan, Fury, and at least Price was fighting!
No, and I'll tell you now, he isn't sitting doing nothing, he's training, but he just put the long term well being of his hand or his elbow or whatever, before boxing, tough break, but it has been a while now, he needs to fight, even with one hand, if that's what he has to do. It is funny that you defend Haye and Fury, make excuses for them, just disregard Thurman's injuries.

I didn't say that but oh well, I would say semi-competitive if pushed. How many guys went 12 with Wlad, Wach, Haye, Jennings, many, Wlad was very negative, didn't take chances, not fan friendly, but smart, but back to the point, Povetkin doesn't have a granite chin. He was struggling a bit at times, not saying he was losing, but Price made it tough. Oh come on, look, "weak knockdown", I'm pissed to read that shit, I didn't even say kncokdown, I said hurt (which he was the ropes kept him up!), so it wouldn't be weak had he not knocked him down, what would that have been? A weak shot which nearly knocked a guy down, shut up man. Meh, yeah he knows what to do when he's hurt, but he was fortunate the bell rang when it did.

Very important!
Not as important, and not what you think.

Ok, good point, but why not have them roughly predict what they weigh come fight time, and weigh them go confirm, 30 minutes before thr fight, if that is what really matters, why wouldn't it matter if one guy outweighs another by a lot during the fight? Why is failing the weight very punishable? If I shifted the point, I didn't mean to, the point of me doing that was to make the discussion neutral, not just about two fighters. Horn is the bigger at 147!

Yeah yeah, but make another point, what is your argument against what I say about being attacked by a bigger fighter than you are used to fighting? I thought about that, ok, but Doaz wasn't at 147 then, and that is only one, that is of very small significance. They should, and often do. It is much easier to compete above your weight, than below it!

Look, I'm not a bully, hence me admitting when you are right, and look, if you got somebody from inside the boxing world to read what I've written, and tell me I'm wrong, then I'd be very shocked, but I would accept I was wrong.

To keep it constructive, it is simple, you think in ring weight matters more than weigh in weight, I say vise verse!

I'm going to write a separate post.

Gold's picture

You stated that I am overestimating the importance of sparring when I was specifically talking about Browne being knocked out in sparring. When fighters are knocked out in fights, they are given medical suspensions, but Browne was out there fighting Whyte a week after being sparked. Perhaps you should read what I said.

You can't just go, make points using examples, and say "wait don't reply to that!" because the examples you give are often incorrect or do not correlate with the point you are trying to make. Like McGregor, Price was given the opportunity based on his name and not his in-ring quality. "Potential" versus domestic level opponents is not enough. Yeah, some guys he lost to were cheating, but he is a very flawed and limited Heavyweight who would have been beaten at a world contender level regardless. Sanctioning bodies and athletic commissions should not be in the business of giving Price a title eliminator shot because they feel sorry for him. Yes, I saw Price in the ring. Same old Price we all know but more defensively minded. He has power but a terrible chin and will get sparked regardless. There are many better contenders who could have been fighting Povetkin. Even if Povetkin would have fought Del Boy I would have been more satisfied by that.

Again making excuses for Price. Khan, Haye, Fury, all not fighting in legitimate title eliminators off of their name. If Price wants to fight at a domestic level where he belongs than best of luck to him. Saying at least Price was fighting, well he was given a gift title eliminator, of course, he would take it. Again, Thurman has two world titles, Haye and Fury zero. If Thurman needs more time than he should vacate his titles.

I'm not talking about Povetkin's actual performance in the fight, he took some big shots from Wladimir, that is not debatable. Again, if Povetkin was really hurt, he would have been floored by Price, but he wasn't.

Being able to make the weight is important but it only serves as a step to rehydrating to get an advantage in the ring.

I don't know why they don't do that, I would assume they think that if someone makes the weight they are entitled to regain as much as they want. If someone doesn't want their opponent to regain a lot of weight they will negotiate a rehydration clause. Failing to make the weight is punishable, but not rehydrating a lot unless there is a rehydration clause.

As I said, that is a different argument than talking about who is bigger and more physically imposing. Diaz was at 162 if I remember correctly in the ring, so pretty big even for Welterweight rehydration. I would have to do more looking to see if there are more, I believe there are but I can't remember which ones off the top of my head.

Champion97's picture

Not for the first time, you misread what I said. I wonder if he was really sparked in sparring, had you known, would you have called it a dangerous mismatch? 99/1?

I'm responding with a reply maybe tomorrow, that will be a mature picece of writing.

Your attitude and the way you talk about David Price is absolutely awful.
People like who who pick on people disgust me, ripping on others to make you feel good about yourself!

What are you on?, so every time a fighter gets hurt, he hits the deck?
"Not correct and do not correlate", you are nitpicking, and building a case to criticise a fighter.

Price did much better than you thought he would!
Wilder vs Stiverne II was worse!
Price knocked Povetkin down!

Again, you are making excuses for them! This is about you talking about "couldn't be bothered" as well, screw that man, and also, I could say that Haye, Fury are worse because they waste more talent!

Price deserved the shot, and his performance backs that up, he trained hard, was in the fight, gave it everything, so what kind of an oik are you to belittle him like that and say he shouldn't get opportunities, fighters who work hard, are unfortunate, have success in every fight, who have good promoters who believe in them, deserve opportunities! Bullshitter! Same old Price will get sparked anyway, he was in that fight! Doing great!, you see how he came back from the knockdown in round 3?

Wingers, whiners, people who pick on people, upsets me a lot, dealt with many of them at school, still angers me to see it!

We did not know for sure that Price would have been beaten by Povetkin, and maybe if Povetkin had been 43 or so, Price with maybe less miles, I think he may have pulled that out!

"Wait don't reply to that!" I never said that but the reason I say what i say in that regard is to keep the discussion relevant, I didn't want to read 3 lines of why "McGregor's case iz different", he is not the only example I could come up with, you are an excuse machine, if I gave you 10 examples, you would find away to pick at them all. Here's ankther way of putting it, don't sidetrack! And don't make a new topic out of my examples and leave the other topic in the middle of a discussion about that, which you have done many times.

I said Horn beat Pacquiao fair and square, because 3 people said it was a fair decision
Organisation of the title at stake
Pacquiao's promoter
Pacquiao's trainer
And you still found an excuse for each! That shows that you can't accept when you ard wrong!

You must think Golovkin vs Wade and Garcia vs Salka were terrible, they were worse than Povetkin vs Price as well! Wade and Salka earned their shots had they?

Gold's picture

Yes, I would have called it a dangerous mismatch and like Povetkin vs. Price I would have said that they should not be sanctioning the bout.

How am I picking on David Price just because I don't think he is a good boxer or a world level boxer? Apparently, only guys like Price, Bellew, and Horn can get "picked on".

You are acting like Povetkin was almost finished when he was able to stay on his feet. Obviously, he felt the shot but he has a good chin so he was able to take it. There is not really a lot I need to "nitpick" to show Price is not a good fighter, it is pretty clear.

Price got sparked in 5 instead of 4, so I guess he did do better than I thought, the result was the same though. I also never said Povetkin versus Price literally the biggest mismatch of all time. I said it was as close to a 100/0 fight as I have seen in a while. Obviously, Wilder versus Stiverne II was up there, but as I have outlined before Wilder vs Stiverne II was a business decision and Stiverne had a much better resume than Price. Price scored a knockdown, but I have also seen guys falling into the ropes not get scored a knockdown e.g. Margarito vs. Mosley.

Not really an excuse to say they are not taking up spots of relevant fighters when Price is. That is just facts. Haye had a great career, he was a truly great Cruiserweight. His body has given up on him though. Fury will likely be back, who knows at what compacity though.

Price did not deserve the shot lol. He got stopped by Hammer and beat a total no name in a 6 round fight before getting the title eliminator shot. You are using hindsight to say he deserved it. I am using empirical data and logic to show he didn't deserve it rather than "poor old Price only losing to cheaters" logic. I sure hope you aren't talking about price when you say have success in every fight and are unfortunate. Everyone knows he gasses and that exposes his chin. Povetkin was working the body and Price was starting to drop his hands. It was only a matter of time. Using the same logic, Khan was doing great against Canelo, but everyone knew it was only a matter of time before he got sparked.

People who over elevate fighters because they like them annoy me. If you like Price, great, but don't act like he deserved this title shot or would be an undefeated juggernaut had he not faced steroid users.

Maybe if you put Golovkin on Gonzalez's shoulders he could knock out Price, but like 43 year old Povetkin vs. younger Price, that wasn't actually what the fight was.

Yes, I agree in that there are plenty of cases like McGregor and Price getting fights based on their name, but McGregor was not fighting in a title eliminator.

Horn lost, the boxing community can agree on that. Three judges no one has heard of, the WBO who is known to be in the pockets of promoters like Arum and Warren, Arum who has screwed Pacquiao before, and Roach who is no longer Pacquiao's trainer. The reality is the vast majority of people who watched it thought that Pacquiao won and he should have.

Wade was undefeated but he didn't earn his shot and it was a bad mismatch. I don't think it was worse than Povetkin versus Price though. Garcia versus Salka is one of the worst mismatches of all time, even the WBA and WBC didn't want anything to do with the fight. That was worse than Povetkin versus Price. None of Wade, Salka, and Price earned their shots.

Champion97's picture

Ok, so had Povetkin vs Price been a 10 rounder, you wouldn't have complained so much?

Come on, that is not all you have said, you have got it in for him, "terrible chin", "got a weak knockdown", you are picking on him, and you know it. Not at all, these are the guys who should show some respect, because they all earned respect. You should give Bellew the credit he deserves for beating Haye, and Horn the credit he deserves for beating Pacquiao.

No, he was hurt, and if it was 99/1, then Price wouldn't have hurt him like that, and it wouldn't have been so competitive. You're a glory hunter! You just crap all over fighters who lose. Price is not really world level, but he is a good British level fighter, doesn't quit, and you should definitely have given him credit for his performance versus Povetkin.

As I've said before, you said "I would be surprised if this went 4", and it is also about how competitive it was for the duration of the fight, Price did better than you thought he would, stop being so childish, and admit it!

As I countered, history is less important in this scenario, it is about age, vulnerability, desire, notice, danger of the fighter expected to win. Forget about levels for a second, because Stiverne had done nothing at a higher level than Price for 4 years. Price was bigger, younger, more active, Wilder is younger and more dangerous than Povetkin, and although Price got sparked once, battered twice, none of those beatings came close to what Stiverne took the first time against Wilder, he was hospitalised for 5 days. Admit that Wilder vs Stiverne II was worse. Yeah exactly, credit there as well, a knockdown is a knockdown, and a fighter doesn't score one if he is as bad as you say Price is, the only round which isn't disputed in the fight is round 2, Price did very well, considering his level, and what we expected from him, all the more reason to credit him.

It is, because in case you have forgotten, I was referring to those fighters regarding the "couldn't be bothered" thing you said. Who was Price taking a spot from? Who should have gotten the opportunity but didn't? I think you also need to stop being such a snob, and remember that Price was given no titles, he had the opportunity to bite down, dig deep, and win one!

Let's get something straight, for Price to get a world title shot, he would have had to have beaten Povetkin, had he done, then you would have surely given in an accepted you were wrong! If Price was to lose, he gets no shot, what's the problem, there isn't one.

If you get upset at Price for the "couldn't be bothered" thing, you must be mad at them, also, why are you so upset about Price getting a privilege of an opportunity you thought he hadn't earned? They are much worse things in boxing!

We can go round on circles all day, yes, he, did, absolutely, no matter what you ridiculous critics say! Yeah it was a bit of a golden ticket, unexpected opportunity, so what?

Exactly, this is your problem, data, logic, great, but remember what I told you about past circumstances, making cases for unfortunate fighters, opportunities!, mentality, desire. I', saying he has success in every fight, always gives it his best, earns respect (remember that boxing is about respect!), and there are good reasons why he got the opportunity, he brought more to the Povetkin fight than Christian Hammer did against Pov! So you keep saying, hence the reasons he was an underdog, that is just you being a critic though, he deserved the opportunity against Povetkin. Price had a chance of stopping Povetkin, he hurt him. Yep, if it was 99/1, he wouldn't have needed to, Price would have been there to be knocked out in round 1. I hate this negative, human computer like attitude towards boxing, it is not what it is about!

Yeah? Well people who are stubborn and stick to their disrespectful BS like glue annoy me! He was deserving of fighting in an eliminator! This is boxing! Don't make it sophisticated! Boxing is old school!

Haha, no no, only earning more money than I will earn in my lifetime! Don't focus TOO much on the titles.

There you go again!!
He did not lose!
I said, trainer, promoter, WBO,
WBO made a mistake
Trainer apparently is too ill to know, even though he is well enough to train many fighters and have a busy schedule, now he just doesn't like him anymore according to you
And what? Arum is a crook?
Just stop with the excuses!

Vast majority? How many people were unbiased? The best pundits in the UK, Malignaggi, many others, said Horn won, and he did win!
Black is black, come on, tell me it isn't, tell me it's white and I've been wrong for years.

Well, reflect on the fights, not the past stuff, the fights themselves, and if yiy still think that, then you still think that.
Did you actually give David Price some credit?
Give yourself a pat on the back!
I thought you might agree on that, I can't believe I stayed up to watch Garcia vs Salka.

I remember being frustrated with Garcia for fighting Salka straight after the Herrera fight, I thought he might have been deserving of a rematch!
If Shawn Porter vs Danny Garcia happens, who wins?!

Gold's picture

Yeah, I would not have complained about it as much, I still would have said Price shouldn't be in the ring with him though.

That isn't having it in for him, that is my analysis of the fight and his performance. Bellew has his chance to shut everyone up soon and Horn didn't actually beat Pacquiao.

The reason I am talking down on Price for this performance is that there is nothing that is replicable that it seems he improved. He can punch, we knew that, he can be knocked out, we knew that.

Everyone could see Povetkin was wearing him down though, Povetkin was going to the body and eventually Price dropped his hands because of Povetkin's bodywork and that's what did him in.

Stiverne in the last four years won the title versus Arreola and went the distance with Wilder (albeit an injured one) which is more than Price. It is debatable to say which is worse, getting sparked like Price really does damage but it isn't always apparent at first while getting beat down is clear. The thing has everyone expected nothing of Price even with his power, so doing anything would get him credit in the eyes of some.

I dunno, someone who has actually fought at a world level? Pulev, Ortiz, Miller, Breazale, Ruiz, etc. Price didn't earn the shot at the title eliminator, he won a six round fight previous to the Povetkin bout.

The problem is there shouldn't be fights for title eliminators where one guy just has a punchers chance when there are other credible opponents out there.

Christian Hammer made it the distance versus Povetkin, it depends which you think is a better performance, losing every round and going the distance, or having a moment of success and getting knocked out halfway through? Price fought negatively at times and made Povetkin work for it if Price went out and swung bombs he would have probably been knocked out earlier. It is hard to get guys out of there when they are fighting negatively.

Yep nice old school corruption getting a title eliminator off of a name instead of merit.

What you see as an excuse is what I see as an explanation, another side of the coin.

Malignaggi is biased against Pacquiao, UK pundits biased towards commonwealth fighters.

If you want to talk about someone I actually dislike, talk about Garcia, not Price. Herrera was deserving of a rematch but it was off to cherry pick for Garcia and his moron dad trainer. Garcia has a very overrated resume in my view. Porter will likely beat him, Porter is underrated in my estimation. The guy is an extremely ugly fighter but fought very close versus quality guys like Brook and Thurman.

Champion97's picture

Horn did beat Pacquiao!

I see what you mean, but understand what I'm saying, when I talk about mentality, desire, motivation. Price did make some improvements, used the jab better, his guard was solid, Povetkin had to use his brain. Price was determined, he was ready, he knew what his own serious weaknesses were, he was realistic, and to be honest, I think that could have been the difference between him scoring knockdown and being done in 5, and being stopped in 3, and it being all one way traffic.

Yes, but did Wilder need to wear Stiverne down? Same for GGG against Wade and Garcia vs Salka? No. Povetkin chipped away at the body, brought the arms down well, but he did that to weaken a dangerous opponent, he did it well, it worked, and it was only a brief struggle, but a struggle for a short time, and he needed good tactics.

I guess I'll settle for that, but you have to say, regarding the timing aspect, which is important, in terms of activity, age, vulnerability, you can see why I predicted Wilder to smash Stiverne in one round, one minute (that was an exaggeration about it finishing in 60 seconds), and I said Price had a 10, maybe 8% shot against Povetkin, and Stiverne had a 0.5% shot. I think in certain situations, you focus too much on current and past levels competed at, and not enough on timing, then again, you didn't come here to be assessed by me, and you probably think the opposite about my fight breakdowns.


In terms of how did better, who was more capable, but in terms of who contributed more to the fight, Price has more to be proud of, that's what I meant.

An explanation which backs up your case for an extremely unlikely scenario given that I gave you full proof statements from reliable sources. Look, let's not be stupid, when a guy's trainer says he lost, he darn well lost.

Great, more excuses, that's 5 pieces of evidence from me, and 5 excuses from you. Malignaggi doesn't score against Pacquiao, certainly not now! Barry Jones is not biased! Best pundit in the UK, been learning from his breakdowns for years, he scored it 7-5.

If I have to, I will explain other reasons, one is that Horn was very instinctively confident after the final bell (I guess he knew he was getting a homwtown decision?), come on man. Pacquiao knew that fight was very close. I think Teddy Atlas is a lot to blame for polluting USA fans' mind against Horn, making them think he didn't beat Pacquiao, when he did beat Pacquiao! Also, about the Commonwealth thing, the excuses, it's unbelievable, just accept it, that was not a bad decision.

The people I dislike are PED cheats (not AJ!), and 'experts' who think they know boxing when they don't.

For non world title fights, Garcia vs Porter is the best potential fight in my opinion, you agree?

Angel Garcia is a good trainer, and he's probably a good grampa, probably not a bad person, but man, he can trash talk, it's out of line, he made a lot of racist comments, and "a motherfucker ain't racist, I grew up in a black neighbourhood, I fucked me a couple of black girls", does not cover it, I think he has done his son's career and reputation a lot of damage, Danny Garcia was unpopular before all this 'cherry pick' talk, he hasn't meant to, but he should have kept a lid on it, controlled his temper. I do think we should commend Angel Garcia for his kind words for Brandon Rios after his brave, brave effort.

I always thought so too, but that Matthysse win was a great upset, and you had to respect him for that, most of us were annoyed to see him waste time fighting Rod Salka, after the Herrera fight, Herrera did deserve that rematch, the first fight was anybody's, I think it would have been good to have seen a draw.

Garcia vs Porter is 50/50, more or less dead even in my opinion! Not trying to disagree, but if pushed, I might give Garcia a 51/49 edge. It is a particularly interesting fight I think. Both Porter and Garcia deserve shots at world titles in my opinion.

Gold's picture

Disagree, even though I thought he won Pacquiao was still bad. I think a lot of people who scored it to Horn had their expectations set in what he used to be which influenced their scoring.

Price did have a good mentality, he left it all out there, I will give him that. I just don't find it that interesting to talk about the mentality, desire, and preparations of a guy on Price's level. More interestingly to me is someone like Roberto Duran who had massive swings in mentality, desire, and preparation.

Stiverne really was bad, I don't remember Wade and Salka fighting as defensively as Price did, but I could be wrong.

We are talking about different things for the most part, I am talking about what the expectations were and if there was a good reason to have the fight, which I can understand for Wilder vs. Stiverne II far more than Povetkin vs. Price. The timing was bad for Price as well, the guy is not young and has a lot of miles on him, but the timing was bad for Povetkin who is also old and declining.

Is it even true Roach said Pacquiao lost? I have found a video of him saying he thought Pacquiao won and that it is hard to win in a guys hometown. Roach also said Horn would last one round against Crawford if you want to take his word on stuff like this. The guy is out of his mind with what he says in the media and should not be taken seriously.

Malignaggi has raged out before about how he thought Pacquiao was on steroids and has shown his biases before. I don't know about Barry Jones, but the British commentary I hear is almost always biased towards British or Commonwealth fighters like a fan commentary. Again, I think people's expectations affected the scoring of the fight.

Horn probably did better than he thought he would, I remember Hughie Fury and his team thought they had it won versus Parker at home but unlike Horn they didn't get the decision. Atlas is an old senile man like Roach, neither of them should be listened to at all.

The evidence against Pacquiao is very similar to the evidence about Anthony Joshua, I would love to hear compelling evidence about Pacquiao's steroid use that is different than what I said about Joshua.

Yeah, it probably is the best non-title fight right now. I would say Inoue vs. McDonnell is relatively close though.

It's not just what Angel Garcia said to Thurman either, he has said other stuff to guys like Khan. The guy is an idiot saying that kind of stuff and saying Danny is one of the biggest draws in boxing. "Swift" surely doesn't refer to Danny's intellect because he's an idiot as well. Too bad we didn't get to see the old man fight between Ruben Guerrero and Angel Garcia during that press conference. That was good he didn't go off on Rios, but it seems like Rios is a well-liked guy with other fighters and trainers so it would have been bad if he did.

I agree the Matthysse win was good, I never was on the Matthysse hype train though. He was never going to give Herrera a rematch because Herrera was a cherry pick that he almost lost to, so they went even lower with the Rod Salka fight which was brutal.

Both Garcia and Porter are at a crossroads of sorts in their career, so it will be interesting to see how the fight pans out if it does hpapen, which I think it will as long as the WBC sanctions it for the interim title. This is one of the few examples where I think an interim actually makes sense as well, Thurman is out and if he can't come back in a reasonable time frame the WBC should upgrade the winner of Garcia vs. Porter to full champion.

Champion97's picture

I'm far from convinced. I struggle to really take that seriously after all I said, but I can't make anyone believe anything.

I'm beginning to understand you better, am I right in thinking you are talking more from the standpoint of very, very badly matched fights rather than how one sided they are? Is it about fights with the least good reason to have been confirmed? If so, then fair enough.

Roach said no robbery.

No bad scorecards from him though, I can find more evidence, but why bother?, you'll find an excuse for everything, off you look for reasons for it to be wrong.

With all due respect, you are not (and neither am I) in any position to be taken seriously when you accuse a fighter of being on steroids. I don't buy AJ being on steroids, if he is on steroids, why did he lose so much muscle before fighting Parker. I think Joshua might have som residual affects of past steroid use in his teens.

That is a title fight.

Haha, not a No 1 Garcia fan are you?

I agree on that. I think Keith Thurman (and I know it sounds crazy) should fighy injured unless he physically can't, because this can't keep happening.

Gold's picture

Yes, more or less that is what I mean. That is why I took objection to you using hindsight to talk about Povetkin versus Price, because that is not what I was referring to.

He also said Pacquiao won so there's that as well. Not that I take stock in what Roach says either way.

Okay, assuming you believe he was, why do you think Pacquiao was on steroids then? He cut mass because McCracken and he realized that the version of AJ we saw in the Takam fight was not optimal. We saw a better boxing AJ versus Parker than we have seen before and that certainly had to do in part with his weight. I don't really buy that he was on steroids during his youth.

It isn't because Burnett holds the WBA Super title, McDonnell just holds the paper regular title. Sanctioning bodies can't have more than one legitimate champion per weight class. McDonnell is surely one of the best guys in the division though.

Of course, I don't actually know, but I have a feeling he is taking longer than he really needs. If he is pushed by the sanctioning bodies I think we will see him fight soon.

Champion97's picture

It isn't about him being someone to listen to, it is about a trainer saying "there was no robbery", and when that happens, you know there was no robbery.

No McDonnell has had the title since he beat Kameda. No McDonnell has the other version of the WBA.

Gold's picture

He said Pacquiao won and implied it was a hometown decision as well, maybe it is best not to listen to Roach?

No Burnett won the WBA Super title off Zhakiyanov and dropped the IBF because of mandatories. The WBA Super title at Bantamweight has been around since before McDonnell won the vacant WBA Regular title versus Rachawat.

Champion97's picture

That's what I thought, only I thought it was against Kameda, but no that's right, in 2014, in front of 80,000 at Wembley, on the undercard of Froch vs Groves II. McDonnell travelled twice as champion, and beat Tomoki Kameda I believe, must have been his earlier defences.

Speaking of 118, Paul Butler vs Emmanuel Rodriguez for the vacant IBF.
Also, am I the only one who thinks Zolani Tete is very underrated?

Gold's picture

I'm not familiar with Butler or Rodriguez to be honest. Tete is not really underrated in my view because only hardcore fans follow these lower weights. People know he is a dangerous guy, I think he will stop Narvaez with relative ease, Narvaez was a very good fighter at one point but he is absolutely ancient.

Champion97's picture

In my book that only proves my point, maybe people should follow lower weights more and give them more credit! Those superfly cards, all the hype around Inoue, it is good, because smaller fighters deserve to be supported like fighters in the higher weights.

Tete is the best at 118, agreed?

Gold's picture

Part of the problem with the lower weight classes for casual fans is what you said, there is not a lot of promotion for them. Casual fans won't look for streams of Japanese fight cards at 5 AM in the US even though some hardcore fans would. HBO realized that they could get these lower weight class guys on a tight budget and they are still big action fighters, we are seeing that with Rungvisai right now.

Tete is the best at 118 in my estimation. I am bummed that we didn't get to see Tete vs. Inoue right away but I'm sure Inoue versus Tete or Inoue versus Burnett will happen down the line if he can get past McDonnell.

Champion97's picture

Inoue will win I think, but he is messing with the weight, he's been a world champion at 108, now he's fighting for a world title at 118, he's 24 or 25, so he hadn't had that much time, I mean I'm sure he couldn't make 108 now, 112 would probably be a struggle, but 10 lbs is a real lot for fighters of this size. As long as McDonnell is ok at the weight himself, he isn't drained in the fight, he will have a real weight advantage, experience as well is on his side, but Inoue is the younger, fresher fighter, and in terms of potential at this level, the calibre of the Japanese prospect, it might be a case of Inoue just simply being better than McDonnell. McDonnell is a tough test for Inoue for sure, he is a great outside fighter, but he can fight on the inside too, his jab is great, he's a massive bantamweight, and his engine, stamina, phenomenal, he shouldn't be written off.

You think Inoue stops McDonnell?

Gold's picture

That's true, he will eventually meet his weight ceiling but as he aged he was going to be too big for Light Flyweight and Super Flyweight. McDonnell will certainly have a big weight advantage and experience advantage at that weight, I agree. However, I think Inoue's experience is underrated, he is not a prospect anymore, he has been in nine title fights at only twenty-five years old. I think McDonnell's outside game considering his size poses an interesting new challenge Inoue hasn't seen before. The one big thing I am concerned about for McDonnell is if Inoue gets to his body, it could get ugly. McDonnell is very lanky, and those body shots are certainly going to count versus him. I think Inoue could stop McDonnell, but I wouldn't say it is the most likely outcome given McDonnell's quality and the size discrepancy. I think Inoue will take over in the second half after his body work pays off and will win a clear decision.

Champion97's picture

I don't think he's seriously too big for 115. That's a great point actually, and that might have something to do with what you said, maybe if lower weights were better promoted, I would not have needed you to remind me of Inoue's experience, 9 title fights, and he seems like a new kid on the boxing scene, lower weights need more support!

Another great point, and weight drained fighters don't take body shots, it is that simple, they might still be able to take a fair amount to the head, not the body, so if McDonnell is dead at the weight, and Inoue works away to the body, McDonnell is done!
McDonnell can work the body himself, very well for a tall fighter, he is a great inside fighter as well. Also, it is one thing to think about what kind of damage Inoue can do to the body, but let's not put the cart before the horse, the power compromise from the weight jump, and the difference in size of opponent aside, he is fighting a guy with good reach, knows how to use it, it might be hard for him to actually get to the body early, and the more he tries, the more shots he might ship from McDonnell, Inoue has to be patient, and I think as well, doing damage to the body I think is most effective when it is built into a game plan, rather than it just being the outright tactic from the off.

Could do, but McDonnell is not only a fighter who doesn't tire, he is a particularly strong 12 round fighter, if you saw the Kameda and Solis fights, you'll see what I mean.

Russell vs Diaz is confirmed for the Stevenson vs Jack undercard, I like that fight, who you got?

Gold's picture

I believe he said he was having difficulty making the weight when he announced he was moving up to Bantamweight. Maybe they are promoted well in Japan, a lot of the lower weight fighters are from Japan or are based out of Japan, but they certainly aren't in the West.

I have not seen much of McDonnell other than some clips, would you recommend the first Kameda fight or the first Solis fight? I have heard the Solis fight is controversial.

I don't really know to be honest, I have never been a fan of Gary Russell, I think he is more flash than substance. However, Russell has proven himself to be of world championship caliber when he does fight, and less is known about JoJo Diaz even though he is a very good prospect. Eventually, Russell will start to look rusty, maybe this will be the fight where he does. Apparently, he has had hand issues, but holding up the title by only fighting once a year for four years is terrible activity. I also have to worry about the motivations of each guy, they are surely trending in opposite directions. If I was forced to pick someone I'd pick Diaz.

Champion97's picture

I find that hard to believe, maybe he wasn't doing the weight right, but I don't see how a former light Flyweight can seriously struggle to make Super flyweight. Good point, the Philippines as well.

I'd say the first Kameda fight, then maybe the Vargas fight (not Rey, that was Gavin and he lost). The Solis fight was good, but yep, many people disagreed with the judges.

I think Diaz. Russell is very good, but I'm not a fan either. Has it really been 4 times in as many years! that is literally half how often a world champion should be fighting! Is isn't good, because it is a competitive division, and fighters are being denied opportunities.

Gold's picture

Well, he was only twenty and twenty-one years old when he held the Light Flyweight title, so it is possible he has filled out quite a bit in four years.

Ok, I will plan on watching at least the Kameda fight later!

Yeah, and Russell is kind of a waste of talent given he is fighting at that frequency. Other than beating an old Jhonny Gonzalez, he hasn't done a whole lot of note either which is sad because he was seen as one of the best prospects out there when he turned pro. The WBC are doing what they are supposed to at least by mandating he fights Diaz.

Champion97's picture

Reply to a lot of that comment, or don't, your choice.

I'm going to be as reasonable as I can.
Us British fans, we are known for being loyall and supportive, but I have to admit, we are also biased.
USA fans are more honest, insightful than British fans.

I stand by a few outright points I made, I think we were both right and wrong to an extent, but in all honesty.

Price getting that opportunity was questionable, he is a vulnerable fighter, and beating Sam Sexton or Audley Harrison, probably his best achievements.
Price being "cut up" was overused by you, but, it isn't, meaningless like I said, most cuts nowadays are caused by the heads clashing, but those cuts weren't, and David Price being gashed so bad he needed so many stitches proves your point.
To be fair "dangerous mismatch", well, I prayed for his safety after he went down, already out.
To be fair, it is hard for me to talk up Sexton, Harrison, Skelton as good wins.
I think Price should retire now.

But still,
You exaggerated
It wasn't what you thought
Price scored a knockdown
There are worse mismatches all the time
Price deserves credit for his courage and spirited effort against Povetkin, he overachieved in the fight.

Gold's picture

I don't know about more insightful, but yeah US fans are probably less loyal.

Yes, I agree, I don't like to see guys busted up like Price or Browne, it is nice to see a good knockout but there is serious damage being done. Price did better than a lot of people thought he would, he should likely retire I agree.

I disagree, you won't see many worse mismatches at that level. As I said before sometimes that situation is called a knockdown and sometimes it isn't.

Champion97's picture

I love you guys in the US to be honest! What state are you in if you don't mind me asking?

"Price did better than a lot of people thought he would"
That's good enough for me!
In your defence, after Price got knocked out, I didn't say "get up man!", I prayed for his safety, and to be fair, that last shot was easy for Povetkin, Price was asleep on his feet after the right hand, blind, open, and vulnerable. Price should retire no doubt! But he should retire, respected for his guts! And in a positive light!

It goes back to what I explained, you focus primarily on who's proven what, and levels, I think more about timing, mentality, two different ways of thinking.

I'm still sending a reply about the weight topic, I am 99% sure I'm right!

Gold's picture

I'd prefer not to share, I like the anonymity. I like the UK as well, seems like a good place and the UK is doing a great job to promote boxing right now even if it means it brings in a lot of casual fans.

I agree, it is also unfortunate the referee was too far away to stop the fight before Povetkin got that one big open shot on Price because he was out on his feet.

Yeah, I think that is true for the most part. Timing and mentality are important as well in my opinion but they are harder to ascertain from what I have seen. For example, I thought Groves and DeGale talking about retirement was a bad mentality that would hurt their performances and they both won anyways.

Champion97's picture

That's cool, good policy to not say.

I've always thought DeGale got slightly too much credit over here, everybody called him the best at 168, and Jack the weak link, I was never convinced, and when they fought, look at the outcome, draw!

So you think Groves beats Smith?

Gold's picture

DeGale is just a proper ass as well, he was deserving of praise when he beat Dirrell and Bute, but he has gone downhill significantly. Jack was always going to be underrated because he is not a flashy guy and he has been sparked before. DeGale gave him a good fight but I think Jack should have got the decision, and the fight surely put more miles on DeGale than it did on Jack.

I think Groves has more miles left on him than I thought before he fought Eubank. I am planning on watching at least one more Smith fight before I will make a prediction on it, but I am leaning Groves at the moment because he is the more known factor. It is hard to tell with a guy like Smith though, he has not faced a guy of Groves level, we don't really know his limits yet and someone like Groves can seemingly age overnight.