grove is retired ramirez is moving up who will take a spot at 168?
I think Callum Smith and Caleb Plant are the top 2, Hart didn't beat Ramirez, but he did very well in the rematch, Benavidez seems like a good fighter, but he still has a lot to prove. The DeGale vs Eubank Jr winner is in the mix. 168 isn't a bad division.
Benavidez is young and talented, but may not long for division, as he’s likely to bulk up as he ages. Smith, Plant, Uzcategui, Hart all top tier SMW guys. Shishkin, Akkawy, Parker, Kilic, Ballard, etc all coming up toward contender level. You will likely see some of the top young guys at 154 and 160 there within next 2 years. Always have ebbs and flows.
Shishkin made a good statement against Mohammedi, after Mohammedi got robbed against Chudibov. Parker's win over Daryl Williams was controversial, but he fought with a bad ar, injury.
I agree it's one of the weakest divisions out there right now. Thinking back to the days of Calzaghe, Kessler, Froch, Ward etc I'm not sure there's a single elite fighter in the division that's proved it. Smith is probably at the front of the queue but he needs big fights to show it. Plant is a good fighter, he really showed Uzcategui's limitations. He's a fighter I don't really rate, reminds me of Badou Jack. Decent fighter but just relies on size and strength.
Put it this way, where would the best super middle be on the pound for pound list? Just about scrape the top 20 maybe.
I don't know, I think Plant and Smith are as good as Froch, Kessler, but still, not the o mst competitive.
Good point mate, but could the same not be said for 126?, that is a very competitive division.
What's amazing is that both Smith and Plant have only ever fought 1 world level fighter, yet are considered (rightly) to be the two best in the division. That really shows the lack of depth. Either some new stars need to emerge or some of the existing middle's need to move up for smith/plant to showcase what they can really do. Maybe Smith is too big for Golovkin but I sure would like to see that kind of fight. Maybe Smith could fight Dirrell? He's the kind of fighter that's world level but shouldn't cause smith too many problems. He needs more of those kind of names on his CV.
That's true, but they both beat good fighters. Well the division is good enough for them to do well at world level, Dirrell, the winner of DeGale vs Eubank Jr, Hart, Benavidez, and Saunders has just moved up. I don't know, possibly, a unification fight is always good to see, that would be a good win. Smith will probably move up soon, I don't think his power wpuld suffer much if at all, he would be strong, and he will decline more slowly in a few years if he doesn't keep killing himself to make 168, especially if in one of these he fights, he can't dehydrate, fights weight drained. I don't think there is much urgency for Smith or Plant getting names on their resume, that is not to say they shouldn't be in meaningful fights, because they should.
Light heavy is really hot at the moment, there's some enormous fights for Smith if he did move up. You've pointed out some good fights for Smith at super middle though, I just hope they can make them because he looks so talented to me, I want to see him tested more.
If he were to fight DeGale by the way, I fully expect Smith to put him in retirement. As for Eubank, Smith would be far too much for him. That would be a shut out.
Definitely. I think he will be because winning a world title, for Smith, seemed overdue, he has built his reputation by beating Groves and winning the WBSS.
I think he'd stop Eubank, I think Eubank would win rounds, but not many, and he would get stopped, man, Eubank getting stopped, would watch that again. I think Smith would stop DeGale as well, I think he is better than DeGale, but DeGale, obviously better than Eubank, but their fight is 50/50 because he is past his best.
PBC has the majority of the talent at Super Middleweight, so I think some good fights could happen there. Cross network fights are kind of out of the question though. So in that regard, I think Smith is kind of out of luck outside of fighting Dmitry Bivol. Golovkin seems to be lined up to fight Andrade and if he wins that, Canelo, so those big matchups aren't possible for Smith. Dirrell is with PBC and will likely fight Benavidez next. If Eubank beats DeGale I wouldn't be surprised if he faced either of the PBC champions. I don't think Saunders is a factor at all, doesn't seem likely he'll fight anyone good let alone a cross promotional fight at Super Middleweight.
Good point, Plant, Dirrell, Benavidez, all with PBC. I thought Golovkin vs Andrade was never in talks. How can he not be a factor at all if he wins a title at 168?
The only fight I can see Saunders taking at 168 is a rematch with Eubank Jr if he wins, and that may not be possible in terms of networks. Saunders is not really a Super Middleweight and he's just holding the title until he can drop back down and fight a big name as the WBO mandatory.
only 2 fighters at 168 are realy impressive smith and benavidez
Benavidez has easily the worst resume of the 3 top guys at 168, and he hasn't faced anyone credible at the championship level. His best win is Gavril, and he really struggled with him the first time around. I don't have a problem calling Smith the most impressive at 168, but you're seriously stretching things to act like Benavidez has shown anything impressive enough to separate himself from the other boxers at the top.
Benavidez was impressive, made a statement against Medina, stopped him like DeGale, Plant, didn't, and agaisnt Gavril, look how much better he was in the rematch than in the first fight, also, to be fair, Benavidez is very young and not in his prime yet.
Right, I don't disagree with you that he has looked good in the past against limited competition and that he has high potential, but point out to me where any of that makes him much more impressive than Plant? Plant actually has an impressive win over Uzcategui. Uzi was an established top 168 pounder who only had one legitimate loss before that against Korobov. I'm arguing against what NF stated, not anything you have replied with above.
I don't think there is anything really in it apart from Plant's dominant win over Uzcategui. I think NF's argument was that it was more about Uzcategui being overrated, but I disagree, no shame in losing to Korobov, and he dominated Andre Dirrell the second time.
he beat dirrel but did he beat any other top contender?
No, but he was dominant in that fight, fair point though, there is only so much you can take from 1 fight.
andre direll is no more in his prime
Name one relevant titlist or top contender at Super Middleweight that has a good resume by your criteria
DeGale lost to Truax and barely scraped by him in a rematch, tough to call him a top contender. My point is that no one has a good resume at Super Middleweight, it is mostly eye test and what you prefer, so it's not fair to criticize Plant in that regard.
No DeGale isn't the best, he has the best resume, that's what I was saying, he's past his best, was never as good as a lot of people said, in my opinion, but he beat Dirrell (a younger Dirrell than Uzcategui beat), Bute, and drew against Jack.
In my opinion, Smith is the best, followed by Plant, third migut be Benavidez.
Me? DeGale has the best resume, but resume isn't everything for a fee reasons, Smith's resume is good, with the Groves win, Benavidez is still very young.
Talking to NF, but for me having one good win does not make a good resume. Not saying that makes anyone at Super Middleweight bad, but still relatively unproven with who is the best.
I prefer fighters who fight a lot of other top contender because even if they lost by a close decision they are often better than before
I agree, because one fight is one fight, that's why some of the experts over here didn't rank Fury the best in 2015 after the Klitschko win, 'it's one fight', and it was that simple. In my opinion, in the 168lb division, the lack of good resumes, is not because the best fighters are not good, but because good match ups are harder to make for so many reasons, we had to wait for May vs Pac, Canelo vs GGG.
I still believe, based on some of your standards in the past, a good resume is extremely hard to come by.
it's not alway the promoter's fault at 168 I don't think good fights are so diffucul to make many boxers don't want to take riks to have a lost on their resume
Definitely some truth in that, unbeaten records are protected, but I think a lot of boxers do want to take risks, and it's their handlers who are careful about taking certain fights, but proportionally, fights can definitely be hard to make.
when a boxer is at very hight level he can take the fight that he wants to takes it's not like boxers at the begening of their career
Yeah, for me that is true that a good resume is hard to come by.
I honestly think Crawford, Lomachencko, Mikey, Golovkin, all have resumes you coule criticise, through no fault of their own, but Canelo, Usyk, and Pacquiao, have the best resumes in boxing.
Usyk's resume is nowhere near the level of Canelo and Pacquiao, but I agree he has a good resume compared to everyone else. There were fewer network conflicts that guys like Crawford, Lomachenko, Mikey, etc. have to deal with to get the resume making fights.
Not for names, but when you look at the timing, how many opponents he has beaten in their primes, his resume is great, then again, I suppose Glowacki, Gassiev, Briedis, not Golovkin, Morales, Barrera
crawford you're joking isn't it?!
when you say that crawford has a good resume is it a joke?
No, I said Crawford doesn't have as good a resume as Canelo, Usyk, Pacquiao, neither does Golovkin, Lomachencko. Crawford's resume is good enough that you can argue that the way he goes about his business is enough to rank him top, but his resume is not as good as Usyk, Canelo, Pacquiao, good resume, not a great resume, is what I'm saying
Crawford's resume isn't a joke, he lacks an A+ level win but every boxer in the sport other than Pacquiao and Canelo lack an A+ level win.
Exactly, but a lot of it depends what case you are trying to make, Gamboa is a blown up featherweight, or a very good fighter with an at the time identical record, if you want, Indongo is a fighter Prograis stopped earlier, schooled old man Burns and got a knock out against Troyanovsky who made a terrible mistake, either that, or an unbeaten fighter coming off two impressive wins, with height, reach, if you want, and Horn, either a rough, come forward fighter with an unbeaten record, who just beat Manny Pacquiao, or a bum who got dropped by Bailey and Funeka, got almost stopped by old man Pacquiao, whichever you want, but the problem is, it is the same for Lomachencko, and the argument as to who has a better resume is a stalemate, because it just depends on what case you are trying to make, but objectively, Canelo, Usyk, Pacquiao, have better resumes than Crawford and Lomachencko.
I agree, that is basically my point. The only top 168ers (not counting Degale for obvious reasons) with a good win are Smith and Plant, and each one of them only has one. Plant looked very impressive against Uzi aside from gassing a bit late, so I don't see how anyone can confidently say Benavidez is at the top of the pack but Plant is not. Just my opinion.
he is very good but not impressive
Why not?, I thought it was a great performance against Uzcategui.
yeah it's was but I don't think uzcategui is so good as that
Let me weigh in (see what I did there....)
I share both opinions. I also think uzcategui is overrated but it still takes a particular set of skills to beat him. The guy is very effective at applying pressure. He sets a good pace through 12 rounds and only seems to get stronger the later a fight progresses. I don't particularly rate his skill set but anyone who doesn't have a decent chin and has the heart and guts to tough it out with him is gonna lose. That's what happened with Dirrell, who is a much better boxer but didn't have the chin or the heart to stay with him for 12.
Plant demonstrated that as well as having a great skill set, he's also a very tough guy with great heart. That probably comes from the hardship he's been through in his personal life. Uzcategui did bring the heat in the second half of that fight and Plant did have to absorb some punishment.
So Planet for me is clearly worthy of being at the top of the division with Smith. I put Smith slightly ahead just based on the skills/attributes I've seen from both fighters. Smith has a clear edge in punching power.
Watched the Dirrell v Yildirim card last night and they had Caleb Plant on as a summariser. They were talking about the strength of the SM division and some of the stuff they were coming out with was laughable. Commentators saying the division is 'stacked with talent', then Plant claims the division's 'the strongest it's ever been'. Then cuts to them showing a load of average PBC SM fighters. Hilariously not a single mention of Callum Smith. I'm really not a fan of Haymon at all.
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