Artur Beterbiev vs Adam Deines Scorecard by Gold


scorecard by GOLD
Round
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
Total
ARTUR BETERBIEV
10
9
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
89
ADAM DEINES
8
10
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
81

Fight:



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Artur Beterbiev

Adam Deines



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Comments

Gold's picture

Immediately in the ring with Kadyrov lol. Beterbiev looks good of course but he could never pass legitimate drug testing. He looked super obvious in this fight

Champion97's picture

Why did this fight support him being a drug cheat when Deines lasted so much longer than expected? Do you think he was taking drugs before which he isn't now? If so, that surprises me, I was under the impression the pandemic had made it easier to get away with PEDs.

Gold's picture

His back and build generally. Usually guys who are 35+ don't have serious back acne unless they are loading roids. I don't know what he was or wasn't doing before, he's always looked similar in his build. I just thought it looked very obvious in this fight, but I don't think there is anything to take from his performance. He just went rounds with a long layoff and did what he had to do.

Champion97's picture

I couldn't judge whether a fighter is clean based on the way they look, but I don't know how much more than me you know about signs of steroid use. Do you think he showed more signs in this fight than previous fights? If so, I see why'd you're suspicious, but his performance doesn't back it up, I haven't seen it, but just the fact that Deines went 9-10 rounds suggests Beterbiev doesn't have unnatural strength or power.

Did you prioritize the ESPN card over the DAZN card? If so, I can't blame you, given Okolie's track record with horrible fights, but fought clean against Glowacki, great performance from him, he put himself on the map.

Gold's picture

The fact he has a lot of mass, tone, and a lot of body acne at 36 is a lot of smoke similar to Marquez in the 4th Pacquiao fight, but it may not necessarily be fire. I don't think so, he's always looked big and strong. Watching the fight it definitely looked like he was coasting, he never really stepped on the gas and took chances. He knew the power was there (got a KD clipping Deines in the first) and broke him down. He hadn't been in the ring for a long time so it made sense to take some time.

I watched the ESPN card, I heard Okolie won by KO. I think it was up to question whether the last Glowacki fight showed he was finished or it was a mirage, but I also heard Okolie put in a pretty good performance. We'll see what he does if he fights other top guys.

Champion97's picture

I know coasting and taking your time isn't necessarily the same as carrying an opponent, but I personally don't think carrying an opponent is a good idea, it takes a lot away from the challenge of the fight if the fighter knows he can stop the opponent whenever he wants, and if that's what Beterviev did, I don't think it will have done him harm or good, hopefully he fights at least once more this year.

Glowacki is shot, no doubt, but it was still a great performance from Okolie, I'd watch the highlights if you have time. One thing worth noting is that to look at Okolie's amateur highlights, you'd think he'd had a lot of amateur fights, but the commentary said he had only 22 amateur bouts, not many, which at least partly explains his past fights. It's an underrated division, I'm impressed by all the champions.

Estrada vs Gonzalez was fight of the year so far for me, no doubt, my gauge was that you were far from happy about the result, I share you're disappointment, I thought it was a legitimate robbery, and Gonzalez was robbed of what would have been one of if not the best win of his career, I know Estrada will be ordered to fight Rungvasai again, but I wouldn't mind seeing a third fight if Estrada beats Rungvasai.

Gold's picture

It comes with an inherent risk but I understand why someone would want rounds. I can see the Joe Smith vs. Vlasov winner vs. Beterbiev by the end of the year.

I was really disappointed. I think it won't count against his legacy though like the Barrera vs. Morales fights, even more so because Gonzalez was a clear winner (imo). I hope the WBC makes an exception, the trilogy between Estrada and Gonzalez would be better in my opinion but I think Rungvisai can still beat Estrada. He made a big obvious tactical mistake in their last fight.

Champion97's picture

They're not valuable rounds is what I'm saying. I don't see any roadblocks, that would be a great fight, Beterviev got a great win against Gvozdyk, but we'll see if he can get at least one more fareer defining win or if he'll be a one hit wonder, because I don't think you can build a much of a legacy with one win.

So was I, I don't see a valid argument for Estrada winning 7 rounds. I don't know, I thought he looked terrible, and it was Estrada who made the tactical mistake based on how he finished, and I don't know how much stock to put in Rungvasai's recent form based on his opposition. It's a shame about the result, it was a great fight, and great performance from Gonzalez. The scoring in the UK is poor at the moment, but based on last week, it's even worse in Texas, McCaskill vs Braekhus was some of the worst I've ever seen.

Gold's picture

I don't know enough to say, it wasn't total one-way traffic and Deines was giving some resistance but it was never enough to give him a chance to win the fight. I think if Beterbiev wins the Smith/Vlasov winner fight (I assume it will be Smith) he can get a big fight down the line versus Canelo but he will be old at that point.

Rungvisai fighting out of his usual stance was puzzling and should be easily remedied in a rematch. I don't know about his form either, that's why I would rather see the Gonzalez fight but maybe the WBC put themselves in a bad position. The Texas scoring has been bad for as long as I can remember.

Champion97's picture

I thought he looked bad against Iran Diaz, Rungvasai, and based on the early and mid rounds against Estrada, it was more than the stance, I agree it was a factor, especially seeing how it likely affected how cut off the ring, but he looked very slow, as if his body wouldn't follow his game plan. I don't know why some fighters last so much longer than they should based on their size, age, miles, and in terms of living the life, and others don't last as long as they should, I'd be fairly confident Gonzalez would beat Rungvasai, which would have been unthinkable 3 years ago, and you'd think Gonzalez, a high output fighter, would age faster than a puncher, but Gonzalez looks hardly declined at all, and I've not been impressed by Rungvasai since the first Estrada fight. I know Texas has a bad record, I'm saying it hasn't improved, the rest of the US has it seems, Brits seem to get a fair shake in California.

You'll have heard about Joshua vs Fury, I can't wait, it's the fight we've all wanted to see for many years, I think you'll give Joshua less of a shot than me, but do you think it will be a good fight? Or do you think it will be like Mayweather vs Pacquiao, where there's a big build up, but the fight itself disappoints most people?

Gold's picture

It's one obvious and easy thing he can fix that can make a big difference though. I think Gonzalez would win as well, Rungvisai does seem more aged but you have to remember Estrada can fight to the level of his opposition, he's fought close versus Rungvisai before too. Wilder vs. Fury I was in California, but generally I agree with what you are saying.

I think it will be a good fight for fans, I think how good it is depends on Fury though because he could use a really negative style versus Joshua. I think a big problem for Joshua is that he's going up against someone with more tools who can create more situations where he has an advantage. I think Fury working with Sugar Hill is a good pairing and only creates more versatility for Fury. I think Joshua has a good chance but Fury is a better and more natural boxer overall so I will favor him.

Champion97's picture

I think Estrada would beat Rungvasai in a third fight, but I agree on the stance being an easy tweak to make, it raises the question, why did he switch stance in the first place? And when it wasn't working, why not go back to southpaw earlier than he did? Wilder vs Fury wasn't about location in my opinion, it was about the A-side getting too much favourable scoring.

I still need to think about the fight, but I can't wait, it's a fight that needed to happen, no doubt. I don't think Fury has many more different tools and attributes than Joshua, but the tools he does have are more important, he controls distance so well, has the highest ring IQ in the division, is defensively the best, and those are more important attributes than a lot of Joshua's, which are mainly physical attributes, having said that, we have to question how much Fury has lived the life since the Wilder rematch. I agree on Hill, he hasn't replaced anything, only added new things to Fury's style.

Gold's picture

I don't know, why did Marvin Hagler come out orthodox versus Leonard and lose the first four rounds? Sometimes boxers do things because they think they will work for some idiosyncratic reason, plus when it does pay off no one questions it. That's probably true what you are saying about Wilder vs. Fury I though.

What I mean by more tools and attributes is that we've seen Fury box for 12 rounds, be as negative as possible and win at the top level, and we've seen him push the pace, use his size and break down guys at the top level. He uses his ring IQ and control of distance that you mentioned to have such variety. I don't think Joshua has shown that, he has beat good contender level guys boxing on the back foot, but I don't think the Ruiz rematch really means much though given how bad Ruiz looked. Joshua and Fury are both physically gifted but in different ways, I haven't seen any evidence Fury has been slacking, I think how long he's been out may be a bigger issue. He always looks like he's in mediocre shape so it's hard for me to tell.

Champion97's picture

I'll respond later, but something I've been meaning to discuss with you is deleting old discussions, not discussions that were particularly interesting or that are good to look back on, maybe we could start with Valuav vs Holyfield?

Gold's picture

Sure, I deleted the first one. If you have others just let me know. I'll check the page now and then to keep deleting them

Champion97's picture

Another one is Chisora vs Takam. I appreciate your cooperation, it's me who painted myself in a bad light in those discussions, not you.

Gold's picture

Probably not, I didn't put my best foot forward in some discussions, I was more focused on "winning" rather than generating legitimate discussion. I still stand by what I said about "Sugar" Nikolai Valuev vs. Holyfield though lol but I'll start deleting that one as well.

Champion97's picture

Good question, that makes sense, it's an example of mentality being important in boxing, but I think Crawford deserves credit for his stance switching against Brook, he looked bad for 2 rounds, fighting the rest of the fight in orthodox would have been a bad idea, but him and BoMac knew when to go back to southpaw, that is, if the plan wasn't to go back to southpaw anyway.

Definitely, and I think he's done that with the attributes I mentioned, ring IQ covers a lot of things, but specifically, I think his judgement of distance, reflexes, footwork, are the difference, and what allow him to be so dominant on the back foot or the front foot. I think Joshua proved against Parker and Ruiz that he can box on the back foot, the Ruiz fight would have been closer if Ruiz had trained properly, but Joshua definitely had more rounds in the tank, he's shown more punch variety than Fury (not overall skill variety), in my opinion, his output is far higher, and Joshua's explosiveness, ability to put clean combinations together, are very impressive for a heavyweight. I think it's fair to say Joshua has never done anything as impressive as Fury's performances against Klitschko and Wilder, on paper, or in the fights themselves, because of how dominant he was throughout against Wilder, and how he physiologically beat Klitschko, offset him, and nullified his offence. How he looks means very little, I mean based on his tendencies, because his mental health battle in 2016-18 wasn't the first time period when he wasn't training or living the life, I'm not saying he he necessarily hasn't been living the life overall, but he almost certainly hasn't to the extent Joshua has.

Gold's picture

Yeah, that's what I mean, he has beaten Parker and Ruiz who are good fighters but especially in the Ruiz case was clearly not at the same level as fighting Wlad or Wilder. I think Fury's output is in part low because he chooses to make it low and can choose to make it low, but he upped the output in the second Wilder fight. I agree with what you are saying about Joshua's advantages though.

I deleted another Valuev post, I tried to do one on the Chisora vs. Takam fight but couldn't find one so you may want to look.

Champion97's picture

I agree his output doesn't reflect his gas tank, but Joshua had a bit left in the tank at the end of the Ruiz rematch. I don't think it's harder to out box Wilder on the back foot for a sustained period because he is less versatile than Parker and Ruiz, but I agree that net, it is, because not getting hit clean at some point is a big ask, with how explosive Wilder is, and his timing, recovering like Fury did in the first fight is obviously a big ask, and Wilder can hit harder than the shots that put Fury down, based how poor his follow up was and how tired he was in the late rounds, Fury didn't make the same mistake in the rematch as Ruiz against Joshua, Fury understood Wilder could knock him out cold, was very intelligent.

I don't think Fury can throw as many shots as a 240 lb Joshua, even considering he has more shots in the tank, but he definitely had a high output against Wilder, his pacing was great in that fight as well, threw more shots in each round, but he had control of the pace more of less throughout, full control in rounds 4-7, he will have more to deal with against Joshua. Also, it seems you were right about Ruiz, he's training now, but he was as heavy as 310 after the Joshua loss.

I appreciate that pal. I've deleted all I can, but it's hard to know which ones to delete, because SalTnutZ1 is simultaneously having a discussion with you, we could just leave that one, and I'll leave a full stop in the comment boxes.

Gold's picture

I don't think much can be taken from the Ruiz rematch either way because Ruiz never pushed Joshua physically or mentally, Fury would do that. Agreed with what you are saying otherwise.

I don't think Fury can throw as many shots either but I also don't think he needs to, he can use his skills and ring IQ to force more favorable engagements by slowing the pace down as he did versus Wlad. Joshua will make it more difficult though, possibly more than any opponent Fury has faced before. I don't think he will make the stylistic mistake Wlad made, but if he comes in at a low weight I would be worried he may. I don't think Ruiz will ever make it back to the level he was at in the first Joshua fight, that had to do with the coincidence of the short turnaround from the Dimitrenko fight and he doesn't have the mentality of Fury, Joshua, Wilder. I think Wilder vs. Ruiz would be a good PPV, even though it is stylistically bad or even very bad for Wilder I may pick him anyways for the reasons I previously mentioned, I don't trust Ruiz to perform again at the highest level.

Champion97's picture

I take slightly more from the Ruiz rematch than you do personally, Ruiz wasn't in shape, but he wasn't so out of shape he couldn't push him at all, Joshua still boxed well under the pressure of having to stay out of the pocket, he boxed a disciplined fight, Ruiz couldn't bait a mistake out of him in the late rounds, which takes discipline, Joshua's fundamentals were better than I've seen them.

Respectively, We have different views on Joshua's performances before and after the Klitschko fight, I think it was the making of him, have been impressed by him since apart from the Ruiz loss, you haven't seemed particularly impressed by any of his performances since Klitschko, which I understand, I know we've discussed it before, but one thing I want to add is that Joshua's best opponent before Klitschko, apart from Whyte, was Breazeale, Takam is likely the weakest Joshua fought after Molina, don't you think Takam is a significantly better than Breazeale? What I'm getting at is, if you look at Joshua's opposition before and after Klitschko, he didn't climb the ladder and step up gradually, he jumped up in opposition after Molina, I think overall, the gap between Joshua's opponents before and after Klitschko is bigger than the gap between Klitschko and Joshua's opponents since their fight.

I agree with that, I think Fury would control the tempo, would offset Joshua with his timing and reactions, and make it hard for him to work. Joshua is busy with the jab, that will keep Fury occupied mentally, and if Joshua can land the jab to the body, that could be very important, that shot sapped a lot out of Pulev, had an affect on Povetkin, it could slow Fury's legs down if he could land it, and certainly, varying the jab to head and body would make it hard for Fury to settle down, certainly to the extent he did against Wilder.

Fair enough about Ruiz, he's lost a lot of weight, will be in shape and probably impress against Arreola, but getting in shape for one fight, and keeping it up for years are different things. It's ironic how Joshua got slaughtered for getting civilised and underestimating Ruiz, when he didn't, he rated Ruiz highly, didn't underestimate him any more than he'd have underestimated another top 6-10 heavyweight, but Ruiz definitely got civilised, thought the rematch would be easy, said Joshua wasn't a good boxer, probably believed it, thought Joshua could do nothing to win. I'm 50/50 on whether Ruiz will get back to where he was against Joshua, it's too unpredictable, but he's young, if he pulls his finger out, he could have a few great years ahead of him.

Gold's picture

I would say he was far enough out of shape at 290+. Other than Valuev he was the heaviest defending HW champion in history and Valuev is 7 feet tall. Ruiz looked very poor in isolation to me, so we may have to agree to disagree on that.

I think what you're saying about our perceptions is true, I think Klitschko was his best performance to date. If you are saying his strength of schedule is higher after the Klitschko fight than before, of course I agree, but his progression has not been good to me. I mentioned his leaky defense after the Povetkin fight, it cost him versus Ruiz and I'm not fully convinced by his other performances. I think he has a good chance versus Fury though so I think he is very good, but he hasn't progressed to the level possible after the Klitschko fight.

I think it will be hard for Joshua to jab consistently versus Fury, I'm sure Fury would welcome Joshua jabbing because Fury has good variety on his jab and can jab from orthodox or southpaw, but it can be a tool for Joshua to set up other elements of his arsenal. Joshua was able to jab down on a much smaller Povetkin and a smaller Pulev, he looked good versus Pulev who has a very good jab but it's hard to say much about it from me because of Pulev's age. Fury is taller and longer than Joshua, it will be interesting to see if Joshua can work his jab with that disadvantage.

I think he will impress versus Arreola because Arreola is tailor made for him. I think the criticism comes from the "punch from the gods" statement, makes it seem like it was luck that Ruiz won. I don't think he underestimated Ruiz, it was just a different ask for Joshua to fight Ruiz versus Miller as planned, I don't think he would have come in as heavy if he had planned for Ruiz in the first place.

Champion97's picture

Yeah, agree to disagree.

I think it's a lot higher, and if you agree a 2017 Takam would have beaten a 2016 Breazeale comfortably, shows that. I think winning possibly every round against Takam is impressive, he got a lot of stick for that performance, and in my opinion, beating every one of the opponents he's beaten since Klitschko is more impressive than being as dominant as he was against his 2016 opponents, which is why I've changed my stance, I believe you signed up in 2017, but in 2016, I was a lot more critical of Joshua, thought he got too much credit, I have been less critical since he beat Klitschko. I understand that, it's leaky based on the Povetkin fight, and it takes one shot in heavyweight boxing, but more the majority of the duration of the rounds, his defence was good, I thought he was moving away from Povetkin's shots as they came, he wasn't hurt as bad as we've seen him in other fights. With the benefit of hindsight, I think Joshua's win over Povetkin is more impressive than it seemed, I don't think the Parker win is more less impressive, but that was a solid win. I don't think it was his defence in of itself against Ruiz, I think it was his mentality after he hurt Ruiz, it wasn't his technical defence, but defensively, if you're holding him to Fury's standard, there's no comparison, and in terms of defensive lapses, he still switched off more times in 7 rounds against Povetkin than Fury against Wilder the first time, so I see where you're coming from. He's progressed significantly, but it can definitely be debated as to how much he's improved, we disagreed on how much he's improved, but I agree other fighters have made bigger improvements in 4 years than he has since Klitschko.

I think it will be hard to land the jab consistently against Fury because he'll be iut of range, will shadow box with the jab, but in terms of being busy with it, and keeping Fury mentally busy, I think he can. I don't think he'll fight southpaw against Joshua, I don't think he controls the distance as well, and might be more of a target for Joshua's right uppercut, but he can definitely still box well as a southpaw. I don't think Fury is more varied with the jab than Joshua, but it's more purposeful, and I think he'd out jab Joshua on the outside. I think Joshua can out work Fury with the jab, I don't think he should feint, and get into a thinking man's fight, he doesn't have Fury's reflexes, but he should try to make Fury being reactive favour him, keep him flinching and twitching, that's draining, Joshua doesn't have the technical skills of Usyk, but that's what he did against Bellew.

I definitely agree he's tailor made for him, he stands and fights, is slow, relies on offence, that all favours Ruiz down to the ground, and I don't think Arreola, as hard as he hits, can hurt Ruiz. I don't know, how different should his weight have been for Ruiz to Miller? I think he should have been light for either, for different reasons, but maybe we disagree on that because we disagree on Miller's strength. I think the late replacement definitely favoured Ruiz in my opinion, he'd just fought, went rounds, but didn't take damage, as even though Joshua didn't underestimate him, that was the fight Ruiz wanted style wise, so I agree it was good timing for Ruiz.

I watched Smith vs Eleider, definitely better than it looks on paper, thanks for the recommendation, I might watch Beterbiev vs Deines, and let you know my thoughts on Beterbiev vs Smith.

Gold's picture

As you know it isn't necessarily the same skill to beat B level guys like Takam consistently and to beat top level guys from that generation of boxers. Joshua will get credit for that in his legacy, if he beats Fury I'm sure he will be a HOF (and Fury will be if he beats Joshua). I think at the time saying Povetkin is tailor made for Joshua is still right, Povetkin's level was likely higher than many considered at the time but stylistically it was always going to be a big ask for Povetkin because of the size difference, we saw the Wlad fight and how much difficulty he had with Wlad's size as well. I think Joshua has a high floor even with the Ruiz fight, I don't know what his ceiling is though.

I think the Wlad fight showed how well Fury can control the distance, yeah Wlad is more safety first than Joshua but Wlad has a great jab, Fury shut him down as we know. I think it is interesting strategically because it will be harder for Joshua to outwork Fury with the jab at a higher weight, but he may be more effective at a higher weight for the reason you mentioned, he shouldn't try to box Fury for the whole fight. As I've mentioned before though, I think Joshua will come in with the right game plan as a boxer puncher, using his skills to set up his power and combinations.

I think he tried to bulk up to deal with Miller's size and strength, with what Joshua showed in the Ruiz rematch he could exploit the foot speed, foot work, and range to beat Ruiz clearly. I think if he would have used that strategy in the first fight he still would have won clearly, it would have been more like Joshua vs. Parker though. That could also be a good weight for him, he was 5 and a half pounds lighter versus Parker than versus Ruiz in their first fight.

I saw your comments about Smith vs. Vlasov, do you think an aspect that favors Beterbiev is that Smith seems to need more space to set up his shots and Beterbiev has good pressure and generates his power with his strength? With that, Beterbiev could potentially get inside of Smith's power, but I may be wrong about that, I would have to rewatch more Smith fights. Beterbiev vs. Deines wasn't much of a watch but maybe you want to see how Beterbiev looked after his layoff. As I said before, Beterbiev basically just went rounds on him.

Champion97's picture

Yes, but it's in how terms of how well he's beaten them, that we disagree slightly, his strength of schedule has been consistent as you said. I don't think any puncher is tailor made for Joshua, I think Pulev had a better style for Joshua than Povetkin because he's reliant on the jab, doesn't have the likely variable of changing the fight with one shot, fighters who are more reliant on defence, like Pulev, Klitschko, were better for Joshua in my opinion, because he's offensively good, and is versatile, doesn't get smothered, has a devastating right uppercut, but a solid jab, doesn't get out boxed on the outside, inexperience was the reason Klitschko seemed to be a step ahead of him for parts of that fight, but because of Joshua's chin, relatively slow recovery, and tenancy to leave that crucial opening now and then, a brilliant offensive fighter like Povetkin has more to exploit in my opinion. I don't think this applies to the Fury fight much because Fury is exceptionally good, is the only fighter I think can out box Joshua on the outside for enough of the fight to win, but I was very impressed by him against Povetkin, logically a better Povetkin than we saw against Hunter and Whyte, and in my opinion, for those reasons, not necessarily a good style for Joshua, not saying necessarily a bad style overall either, because I see your argument, but I disagree because I think more favoured Povetkin stylistically.

Definitely, he nullified Klitschko's jab, out timed Klitschko, Klitschko couldn't deal with Fury's reflexes or movement. Fury showed another dimension in the Wilder rematch, I'd seen him box on the outside, on the back foot, and I'd seen him fight on the inside, but even though he landed short shots in close at times, he maintained the distance when he backed Wilder up, which is another skill, and is why he threw the long left hook disguised as a jab. I think the busier he is, the better, and the best shot for him to throw is the jab to the body, he shouldn't worry too much about accuracy in the early rounds, but what he can't afford is let Fury have comfortable rounds, let him keep it at a low tempo, he has to keep Fury occupied. I agree on that, he will set up his combinations, use his speed and utilise being the more explosive fighter.

Very possible, Miller is a lot stronger than Ruiz even without his offensive attributes. I agree weight was important, but it's been corroborated that Joshua was concussed before the fight, which would explain why he went down so easily in round 7, even after he'd seemed to recover.

Did you think I implied that? Because I was impressed by Smith's ability to shorten the right hand against Eleider, it was only his pacing that I wasn't impressed by, but Beterviev would definitely capitalize on the intervals as Smith relents. Thanks for the assessment, I think I'll watch at least some of it. Based on Smith's fight against Alvarez, and the knowledge it took Beterbiev so long to stop Deines, I think the argument that Smith beats Beterbiev is stronger than I thought, I hope the fight happens this year, do you think it will? Provided Smith beats Vlasov?

Gold's picture

I think that's just the floor versus ceiling argument I was talking about, I know his floor is good but what's his ceiling? The two are correlated but aren't necessarily linked causally. I think for a puncher Povetkin is better for Joshua than most because Joshua could use his size. I think Pulev was an easy fight for him but not Wlad, because even though Wlad is defensive he has great power. Part of the problem for Povetkin is he lacks a good jab, he can't try to jab his way in versus taller guys with a big jab so eventually he gets caught leaping in.

I agree, Joshua should be busy without risking draining the tank and shouldn't worry a lot about the accuracy. I also agree that he shouldn't let Fury set the pace. If he does that, in my opinion he's basically banking on getting a KO, because I don't think he can point Fury.

Could you give me information about the concussion story? I thought that was just a rumor spread at the time and then afterwards as a defense of Joshua.

No, that's why I was curious. I was under the impression Smith needed space to generate his power, which is why I asked if Beterbiev should try to keep the pressure on to get inside of his power. So I will have to watch some of Smith again. I don't think Vlasov is an easy out for Smith, he's a guy who does a lot at a good to decent level but nothing at a great level, so if Smith doesn't show up he could lose. I think Beterbiev vs. Smith would happen if Smith wins, it's a relatively inexpensive fight and would be a headliner.

Champion97's picture

I'll respond properly later when I have more time, but first, I don't want to leave you hanging on the concussion. In his dressing room before the fight, he was putting his head in a bucket of ice, wondering why he felt so unwell, his demeanor supports that there was a problem, Hearn was scared Joshua Sr was about to assault him, a promoter's nightmare must be a fighter pulling out at the last minute, Hearn wouldn't have wanted him to pull out, a lot of this makes perfect sense, but hasn't been corroborated, granted, but Joshua has confirmed he had a health issue before the fight, surgery after it, the bucket of ice is something he himself mentioned, and he was definitely concussed in the fight. What it comes down to is whether you believe the left hook from Ruiz in round 3 started the concussion or worsened a concussion that was already there. I hope you don't think I'm making excuses for Joshua, him being concussed before the fight is what I think based on the facts and what I observed before he got caught.

Champion97's picture

I think we've seen his ceiling in terms of his chin and recovery, and that's why Fury is more durable, it's his natural recovery, he isn't the better athlete, and can be hurt when he takes a big shot, Fury, but he recovers extremely quickly, Joshua takes a good 2 rounds to recover when he's hurt based on all the professional fights we've seen him hurt in, so for recovery rate, there's no comparison between him and Fury. I think Whyte hurt Joshua a lot worse than Povetkin did, but Povetkin did a far better job of following it up before Joshua recovered. I think Joshua's ceiling is a narrowed gap between him and where Fury is at now, I think he can make fewer and fewer mistakes when he boxes good fighters, I don't see a reason why he wouldn't continue to improve in that regard, but he'll never have Fury's reflexes and awareness. I don't remember Joshua using his size much against Povetkin, I think he worked when Povetkin wasn't throwing, was prepared for Povetkin to get off first, and he pulled back when he did. True about Wlad's power, but a 2017 Wlad is better than a 2020 Pulev, and Joshua has improved, we don't agree on how much he's improved, but I don't think Klitschko's style was wrong for him because he wasn't a great offensive fighter. Good point, and even before he's caught, it's easier to pull back from a lead hook or over hand than a right hand set up by a jab or when the opponent has jabbed his way in, he's fallen short more often as he's got older and his legs have got slower, and because of his age, he needs more time between attacks, which gives the opponent a chance to work.

I don't think Smith needs space to generate his power, he can fight at mid range, but he can also get short shots off on the inside, and as he jabbed his way in against Eleider, Eleider leaned forward at angle to the left of Smith as the right hand came, Smith would have over reached if he needed significant space to get his shots off, but he shortened the right hand. I don't think Beterviev should try to get inside his power for sustained period, I'd need to think about it, but he should try to make Smith feel the power early, put him on the back foot, he has the strength and power to do that, boxing on the outside isn't his style, but in a clean fight at close range, Smith is very dangerous. I'd need to think and see more of both before I say any more than that.

TBH I'm at the point where I think 95% of these guys are juicing, just to varying degrees.

Gold's picture

I'm sure many are, but there are different levels and Beterbiev looks like he's been working out with Holyfield and RJJ

Ha definitely. He looks cut from granite, he is definitely on a pretty strong cocktail.