Yordenis Ugas vs Abel Ramos Scorecard by Champion97


scorecard by CHAMPION97
Round
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
Total
YORDENIS UGAS
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
9
9
10
118
ABEL RAMOS
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
10
10
9
110

Fight:



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Yordenis Ugas

Abel Ramos



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Comments

Gold's picture

https://www.news.com.au/sport/boxing/jeff-horns-trainer-releases-bombshe...

Did you see this? Awful look for Rushton. Seems like he is delusional and/or only cares about continuing his own career as a trainer

Champion97's picture

You were right, he's a fool, to compare that to the rope a dope, when Ali was defending well and had a plan. He admitted Horn didn't answer when asked if he wanted to continue, and he thinks the fight shouldn't have been stopped, that's always a sign the fighter doesn't want to continue, is too tough to quit, but hopes you pull him out. I read a few days ago he admitted Horn was gassed after 2 rounds, and then he says he wasn't tired. I think he's similar to Jay Deas, not understanding the danger of boxing, not only failing to stop the fight, but blame the guy who did what had to be done.

I'm interested to see your predictions, Pedraza vs Molina is an an interesting fight, and I added Dorticos vs Briedis to the vault.

Gold's picture

Hope you don't think I'm trying to rub it in with it, just wanted you to see it because I know we both think that guys shouldn't stay in there to take beatings for no reason. Like you said Horn was probably too tough for his own good, it's up to the trainers as one of the lines of defense to pull guys out to save them.

I'll admit I'm not familiar with Molina, I didn't watch him versus James, Okada, or Imam. Do you think he can beat Pedraza? I will probably pick Pedraza because I'm familiar with him and he's fought and won at a higher level. Just from looking at his resume the weight factor is at least somewhat interesting on paper, former 147 now at 140 versus a former 130 lbs (granted Pedraza should be adjusted to 140 by now). Dorticos vs. Briedis finally, I'm not sure about it. I heard a lot of things about Briedis's training and camp situation was poor and I don't know what to make of the Glowacki fight. He looked terrible versus Gevor and I didn't think he looked good versus Deslaurier either. I think stylistically Brieidis could make it his fight though and counter well versus Dorticos, so I don't really have my mind made up. Do you have a strong opinion on either of them?

Champion97's picture

Not at all man. Bad coaches in boxing are dangerous, McLellan wouldn't be where he is now if he'd had a good trainer. Rushton seems to have a lack of understanding of how dangerous boxing is, and to only agree a stoppage was necessary if the fighter is taking the beating of his life, because no good trainer keeps a fighter in there when he's getting beaten up, had no success, is mentally beaten, I haven't seen the whole second Zerafa fight, but that fight was competitive, there was no reason to think he would pull out the stoppage against Tszyu, who was dominant, in control, wasn't tired, and it's a case of a trainer being a bloodthirsty fan.

It's interesting, because although I'll happily agree Rushton's a moron, what I said when you first criticised him was that you must think Horn is potentially a better fighter than we saw against Crawford, if you think having a bad coach a is a factor, meaning, he's in the top 5 when it comes to Crawford's opponents, broken rhythm was a good tactic for Horn against Crawford, but I don't think Rushton did a good job of helping Horn apply those tactics.

Yes, I think he'll beat Pedraza based on Pedraza's vulnerabilities, his size advantage, and his last two fights, I wouldn't be shocked if Pedraza won because of the level he's been at, he's more experienced, he isn't shot based on his last fight, but I don't think he can attack, without opening himself up to taking shots, Molina attacked off the back foot against Imam, he can push Pedraza back as well, Pedraza can give him problems with his movement and combinations, but I don't think he can win the fight by doing that because I think Molina will do too much damage whenever they exchange, and I don't think Pedraza is good enough to stick and move consistently for 10 rounds.

About styles, I'll admit I was flat out wrong about thinking they weren't as important as people thought, and Briedis's style was a big factor against Usyk. I don't have a strong opinion on who wins the fight, I'll watch them both fight again, but I'm leaning towards Briedis because of Dorticos weaknesses, he's very flat footed, easy to hit, and I think he'll struggle to deal with ambush attacks, especially with the right hand. I think Briedis has a fairly similar style to Horn, do you see that at all? The reason I say that is because they are both come forward fighters who use lateral movement, get into range quickly and attack, both have styles which don't look good, but are effective.aa

Gold's picture

Agreed, the Zerafa rematch and the Tszyu fights were very different. To say he was a top 5 opponent for Crawford isn't saying a whole lot and obviously I like Crawford. It was probably his best chance to try to fight rough versus Crawford because what were his other options? He 100% could not box Crawford and Crawford was stronger and a better in-fighter than Horn.

Do you think Molina has good enough power to do that though? 140 I don't think is a good idea for Pedraza, so I think it is possible based on what you are saying.

I think the best version of Briedis is quite a bit more versatile than Horn, Briedis counterpunched well versus Usyk. I can see what you are getting at with how his style can look ugly and how he likes to get into range. Dorticos has a pretty basic offense and I think if Briedis brings his A-game he could make countering Dorticos a big area of success.

Champion97's picture

I know it's not saying a lot, I never thought Horn would make it close against Crawford, and him beating Pacquiao (or at least making it competitive if you disagree) convinced me Pacquiao was shot, it's only that you must have thought he had the potential to be better if you agree he was top 5, and his trainer was bad. I agree Crawford is a better in fighter, can get clean shots off at close range a lot better than Horn, I still think Crawford would have stopped him a round or 2 earlier, and would have started slightly faster if it wasn't his first fight at 147, but there was no kind of fight which benefitted Horn, he doesn't have a good chin, which means it was hard for him to go for broke, and be prepared to take shots to land them.

Yes, based on the Okada fight, he seemed to get Imam's respect as Well, I don't know why his KO ratio is as low as it is, maybe he wasn't throwing with the right technique, or didn't have a killer instinct, but he can punch based on what I've seen of him. I won't be shocked if I'm wrong, and Molina can't deal with Pedraza's speed, combinations, and awkwardness, but I think Molina wins, and it wasn't the toughest prediction I've ever made.

It's been too long since I've seen Briedis fight, but I suppose counter punching alone makes a significant difference. I agree being a counter puncher is always a great attribute, but Dorticos is a counter puncher as well, I'd have to watch it again to be sure but I think it was a counter that knocked out Tabiti. I think Dorticos lack of defence, slow feet, and inability to fight off the back foot are what I think Briedis can build on most.

I saw Ugas vs Ramos, robbery in my opinion, 116-112 is the closest I could see it, Moret's card is amongst the worst I've ever seen.

Gold's picture

I don't know how much stock I would put in the Okada win, but I remember the Imam win was a surprise. Will be a good call by you if Molina wins.

Briedis went well to the head and body versus Usyk and Dorticos is limited in his punch selection so I think that is a theoretical advantage to Briedis between them. It is kind of hard to call under these conditions though, and who knows what Briedis's level will be. I could see Briedis backing Dorticos up and making him look slow as you said.

You mean in terms of the scorecard being bad? Because Ugas still won. Moret's scorecard is awful, he's too old and shouldn't be scoring fights anymore.

Champion97's picture

It's not that he beat Okada, because Okada only just got past Coria and was stopped against a very past prime Beltran, but it was how he won which was impressive.

It's been too long since I've seen them fight, I'm planning to write a game plan analysis later, but it seems familiar that Dorticos doesn't have great variety. The reason I think Briedis wins, and it isn't the hardest prediction, is because he isn't old or damaged enough to logically be the shot fighter he looked like against Gevor, so for him to fail to beat Dorticos, he'd have to either have an off night, which can fighter can suffer, or he'd have to have stopped training over the last few years, and that seems unlikely. I think a key question is whether he can back him up.

I know he won, I didn't mean robbery, but all the cards were off in my opinion. I just looked him up, he's 76, I agree he's too old, Clark A
Sammertino didn't know which fighter was which when he scored Haskins vs Burnett, he died last year, I believe he was 80 odd, Haskins vs Burnett was the last fight he ever judged, but that fight was another case of a judge being too old.

I wrote game plan analyses for Joshua vs Pulev and Lomachenko vs Lopez yesterday, I'd love to get your take on them.

Gold's picture

Yeah, I know, I understand why you are putting stock into it but personally I'm not.

Same, some of these guys I really have to draw back on my memory to remember the aspects of their game lol. I think that is a good point about Briedis and his level. Perhaps it depends on how much Dorticos can get going early on before Briedis can get to work.

That Sammertino mix-up was unacceptable, good thing he retired.

With Joshua vs. Pulev what weight do you think Joshua will come in at? I think it would suit him more to come in at a higher weight than versus Ruiz II, I don't think he should get overly involved in trying to box an old Pulev. I think he can jab the older Pulev but he shouldn't be worried about mixing it up with Pulev because of Ruiz I. Joshua should be able to push Pulev farther than he can go if he steps on the gas some over the early to mid rounds.

I think it is a fine line for Lomachenko between using movement to try to stay out of danger of Lopez and potentially using too much and risking having to slow down later in the fight. On the other hand like you said, Lopez needs to take the initiative to make Lomachenko respect his power early and try to back him up. He can't just wait for counters because they may never come and Lomachenko can pile up points. I wouldn't be surprised if Lomachenko got caught at least once in the fight even if he's doing well, it happened versus Campbell and obviously to a worse extent versus Linares. He is hittable at times so if that happens for Lopez he needs to be able to take advantage of it. Lomachenko is probably the smart pick to win for all of the reasons you had mentioned there and on the bout page but if Lopez wins by KO I'm going to go unhinged so hopefully you'll be able to tolerate me still lol

Champion97's picture

I've just written a game plan analysis for Briedis vs Dorticos. I think Dorticos could use his jab better than we've seen in the past, but I don't see how else he can start faster than Briedis and stop him applying his tactics given how slow his feet are, and how much less output and variety he has.

I understand what he did, he looked at the color of the shorts, and assumed the home fighter was the champion, but I agree it's unacceptable, it's the only fight in history I'm aware of, where a judge doesn't know which fighter is which.

I agree, because he won't need to move as much, and could use more strength in clinches, I'd say 243, he should be light enough that he can easily out work Pulev, but strong enough that he can overpower Pulev. I agree, he doesn't have to be as cautious, because although Pulev makes an opponent look bad without doing much himself, has a great jab, and Ruiz doesn't have those attributes, there's no comparison when it comes to who's more dangerous in the pocket. I agree to an extent, but he should try to avoid walking into Pulev's counter jab, it won't put him down, but it could hurt him, break his nose, and so you agree Pulev will position himself not to get hit with the right hand? Because I think that's another reason to try to weaken Pulev before stepping on the gas.

That's a good point, but he might have the best footwork in boxing, he can use his movement and also be economical, and I think that will take more out of Lopez's because he'll have to keep adjusting his feet, I know Lopez is explosive, gets into range quickly when he lets his hands go, but I don't think he has the fastest feet when it comes to moving around the ring in general. Lopez can hit Lomachenko harder than he's ever been hit, he can definitely hurt him, and with Lopez being explosive, and a counter puncher, it's likely he will land clean sooner or later, hurt Lomachenko, and when that happens, the million dollar question is how he can build on it, but I'd be surprised if he could stop Lomachenko, given Lomachenko's experience, ability to use the ring.

I'm surprised so many people are picking Lopez to win, I think people are getting carried away, I think Lomachenko should be a heavier favourite than the safe bet, apart from Commey, Lomachenko's opposition, in 2016-19, as well as Salido and Russell, has been a level above Lopez's, his amateur background is on a different level, this fight is slightly similar to Kovalev vs Yarde for that reason.

Haney vs Russell is likely, different weights and networks, so obviously a surprising fight, I think Haney would be fairly dominant, but it's still an interesting fight. What do you think of that one?

Gold's picture

I'm sure a mixup has happened before but it has to be one of the only modern times where it has happened, especially at that level. If you go back and look at the really old boxrec pages there are some pretty out there entries.

The thing I'll say about Pulev's jab is that Pulev is basic enough that Joshua should be able to use his other tools and versatility to figure Pulev out. It will be harder to fight a negative fight versus Joshua than versus some of his other opponents. I think Pulev will try to do that, but Pulev is 39, I don't know how much he will have in the tank to push Joshua. I think it is a fight where Joshua can fight to his strengths and doesn't have to overthink it to have success.

That's one thing I think Lomachenko should pay attention to in the fight, being economical with his footwork because I think sometimes it is wasted. Like you said it will take more out of Lopez to try to keep up, so Lopez has to make the best of his opportunities and let his hands go. I think he can crack Lomachenko's chin if he lands but that's the problem, as we said he has to get into position and land the shot.

Top Rank would want Lopez to win, they've been hyping him up before and it would make sense for them to keep doing so. Perhaps that would be something to take into consideration if it goes to the cards and is close. I think in a year or two Lopez would be truly ready for this fight, he doesn't have enough experience in my opinion but he's taking a chance.

It is likely? I wouldn't be so sure with Gary Russell. Think the fight is trash in my opinion, if it happens I hope Russell gets sparked out early because him calling out these guys who are way bigger than him gets old. Even if the LSC fight not happening wasn't his fault as far as I know he was a free agent so he should have pushed for better fights at PBC or switched promoters to try to make a unification or 130 lbs title fight happen. It seems like a cashout to me.

Speaking of that, what do you make of Tank vs. LSC? I honestly might put money on Tank, he has been in Vegas with Floyd for a while training so I don't expect a Fonseca/Gamboa type performance. I just don't see how LSC can win the fight if Tank shows up in good shape, it is a terrible matchup on every level for him.

There was an interesting story on boxingscene about how Bob Arum said Top Rank's matchmaker believes Joe Smith Jr would beat Beterbiev. Obviously that could just be Bob talking nonsense to try to build the fight, but if Smith Jr beats the Vlasov/Salamov winner and Beterbiev beats Meng (assuming that is rescheduled) that would be the logical fight to make. What do you think of that fight? Could be a case of who can catch better considering their power, Beterbiev's chin is probably more questionable and his defense/head movement is questionable but Beterbiev is the better boxer offensively.

Do you guys get the Showtime card next week? Or the Showtime PPV in two weeks? I know those were available on a network in the UK before but I think I heard they weren't getting the recent ones.

Champion97's picture

Because I add a lot of fights, I see a lot of controversial fights on BoxRec, an example is Briedis's win vs Williams, it's on BoxRec but it shouldn't be, it was an exhibition fight, I've read about fights like that, but I've never known judge mix the fighters up before Sammartino.

Pulev is offensively basic, but his ability to stifle the work of the opponent is why he's a problem. I think Pulev will be prepared for Joshua's right hand, I think his low left hand gives the impression he's an easy target for that shot, but he is not, because of the way turns as the shot comes towards him, extends his left arm to put himself outside the range of the shot, or catch the shot in his left glove. I don't know if you agree it will be a problem for Joshua in the first 2-3 rounds, but I think it will be, Klitschko did far more damage against Pulev with the left hook than the right hand, it will be interesting to see how well Joshua can use his left hook if Pulev does what I think he will. I agree he will struggle physically to have it in the tank, there is more pressure on him to win the early rounds.

When have you seen Lomachenko waste any movement?

I wasn't referring to promoters or the media, I mean knowledgeable fans in general, they seem to be so sold on Lopez they believe he can beat a top 5 pound for pound fighter at this stage, it's a very big ask to say the least. Experience is the main factor in my opinion, but it's very questionable if Lopez has the potential to be as good as Lomachenko, he has the potential to be a good, world class fighter, but we know Lomachenko is a great fighter.

It would be good to see Russell get his mouth shut. I agree it's a cash out, it's a big risk for Russell to say the least, should be a decent payday.

I know you don't like fighters whining, well Russell is the king at that, he's such a sore loser, it's laughable, saying Lomachenko isn't that good and he only lost because he was weight drained, when he's continued to make 126 in the 6 years since the fight, there was the comment Santa Cruz Sr's cancer, and when Hyland answered a question about a death in his family, Russell says, 'it has nothing to do with the fight', which was not only harsh, but wrong, because something as significant as that can affect a fighters performance in the ring. Sorry for the rant, but I suppose we all have the odd fighter or two we just don't like.

If it was at 135, I would definitely think it's a cash out, there would be too many things against Santa Cruz to see him winning, the fight is more interesting at 130, and although I know Davis is training hard now, we don't know what level his conditioning was at when he started training again, because he wasn't training in the several months after the Gamboa fight, which isn't surprising, but if Davis isn't drained, is ready, I don't think Santa Cruz can win, he can't out box Davis, obviously comes off worse in a gunslinger, and I don't think he can use his own strengths without opening himself up to taking damage, to win enough rounds, because Davis is a counter puncher, can fight on the inside, is offensively brilliant.

I saw that headline, but didn't read the article. I wouldn't personally put much stock in that, I don't think he's lying that his matchmaker said that, but I think the matchmaker was influenced by how dominant Smith looked against a probably shot Alvarez. Beterbiev is fighting Adm Deines now, the fight just got postponed but it will be rescheduled, but if he wins that, and Smith wins, it's a good fight. I think Beterbiev, I'd need to watch them both fight again, but I think Beterbiev is too good offensively like you said, and Smith would be too much of a target.

No idea, I won't know until a week out from the fight, some of these fights get picked up by Sky or BoxNation at the last minute. Boxnation haven't shown a fight live since Kownacki vs Helenius, so they could do with catching a fight card live.

Gold's picture

Have you heard of Carruthers vs. Songkitrat for the world bantamweight title in 1954? Only known world title fight after the bareknuckle era to be fought barefoot. Interesting anecdote from a bout page.

I'd have to rewatch Pulev's fights to say for sure about something that specific but I don't really want to rewatch Pulev's fights to be honest lol. It will be interesting to see if Pulev can even do that, he's fighting away and I don't expect him to get the benefit of the doubt if he tries to point Joshua round by round.

That's the problem, it hasn't caught up to him yet but when it does we'll know. His style uses too much movement to where when his athleticism declines he will decline. It isn't a super efficient style like Pep where he isn't having to move much to do a lot.

Seems like they aren't considering the fight anymore, I know he is a big whiner. His choice to fight once a year if he's beating the mandatories but he's a waste of talent. No reason his best win should be an old Jhonny Gonzalez or Jojo Diaz.

He probably was in poor shape before but he's been there since the beginning of August apparently. That's what I was thinking, Santa Cruz needs to come forward and throw punches to win this fight, but he doesn't have the power to get Tank's respect and he's going to be walking into counters from a bigger and stronger fighter. I would not be surprised if LSC gets stopped.

I would disagree with that, it's the matchmaker's job to know boxing and make the fights strategically that the promoter wants. That's why I thought it was interesting he would say that, I would favor Beterbiev but he isn't getting any younger and has been dropped by lesser guys than Smith. Do you know if Deines is going to be rescheduled? Doesn't really make sense to do so because he was a replacement opponent but maybe they will. I know they had issues trying to get Meng's visa situation for him to fight in Russia, so if they reschedule Beterbiev vs. Deines I assume that's why.

Hopefully someone will, I hope no one has to drop out of the Charlo fight card due to COVID, I'm looking forward to it.

Champion97's picture

No I haven't, that's interesting, is there a reason why it was fought barefoot?

I don't blame you, the Fury fight was a stinker, Pulev will never be a crowd pleaser. Neither do I, but I think he will try to use his jab to hurt Joshua, try to out hustle him and rough him up in clinches, but I think disallowing Joshua from landing his right hand will be more of a problem for Joshua.

I don't know, he's a thinker, his footwork and technique is very good, so he doesn't need to physically exert movement based on how he gets stronger as the rounds go on in fights. Mayweather always moved around the ring, and his age wasn't much of an issue until he was 37, he was light on his feet for 12 rounds against Canelo at 36, it's easy to forget hiw old he already was at that time. I don't agree Lomachenko's physical decline will bring him down with it until he's very old, not saying it won't be a factor at all in the near future, but it's fighters like Porter who I think will decline quickly, because he uses foot speed and athleticism, but it's seemed to me that Lomachenko uses his feet comfortably. We're not on the same page when it comes to Lomachenko and how fast he'll decline.

I agree about Russell.

The question is, how poor shape was he in? Beginning of August is about 10 weeks out from the fight, enough time to train hard without over training, but Andy Ruiz was more prepared for the first Joshua fight than the second, when his camp for the second fight was literally over twice as long, which shows how important it is to start camp in decent shape. Making 130 won't be easy for Davis, if he's drained, that definitely makes the fight more interesting. I haven't analysed the fight yet, but it's clear it's hard to see Santa Cruz winning if Davis isn't drained, given how much is against him.

I read 'Deines fight postponed', which implies it will be rescheduled, he was a replacement, but the fight has been scheduled for a while, Denies isn't a last minute substitute.

Best card of the year, the Charlos are both in high risk fights, people seem to writing Rosario off, but he is a live underdog.

Ennis vs Abreu should be an interesting fight, it's a step up for Ennis, Abreu is awkward, should be a good test and decent learning fight for him.

Gold's picture

Yeah, apparently it was monsoon season in Thailand where the fight took place and the ring was flooded. You may have heard this one as well and I don't know how true it is but I've heard people blame Pongsaklek Wonjongkam's big upset loss to Sonny Boy Jaro on Wonjongkam walking to the ring in his shoes while it had been and was raining in Thailand whereas Jaro covered his shoes or was carried to the ring. Supposedly Wonjongkam couldn't get good footing, but I don't know if there is available footage of the ringwalk or if that is even true.

Do you think Pulev can have success roughing Joshua up? I would be skeptical of that considering Joshua is likely the stronger of the two.

Mayweather's movement was more economical than Lomachenko's, Mayweather late in his career was overall one of the most economical boxers I have seen, very little was wasted. It is easy to say that about Lomachenko but remember Roy Jones who couldn't reestablish himself as he aged and he had great amateur pedigree. Lomachenko had a long amateur career, I wouldn't be surprised if he started to decline soon.

Probably the same as usual which is not good, he looked pretty good in his most recent Instagram post but he's wearing the Andy Ruiz black shirt so it's hard to tell lol. Even though it's Davis, the fact that we are talking about LSC's best chance being Davis being weight drained is not good for him.

I think Ennis vs. Abreu will be an interesting fight too just to see what level he's at. He needs fights at that level or better otherwise he's at risk of not developing and stagnating.

Champion97's picture

I hadn't heard that, I don't know how valid an excuse that is, but I suppose it's possible all the absorbed water added a significant amount of weight to the boots.

Not really, I agree Joshua is stronger, all I was saying about that was that Pulev would try to rough Joshua up and do damage with the jab, not just be more accurate and try to out point him, we'll see, but Pulev

His style was different in that he covered more of the ring and didn't use pivots as often as Lomachenko, but I just don't agree Lomachenko is less economical because of how good a technician he is, he makes it look easy, he doesn't gas in fights and seems to finish without his tank being empty. It's more draining to move around the ring like Mayweather did than to have a great stance, doing small adjustments like Lomachenko, I'm not saying Mayweather wasn't economical because I know he was smart, didn't move more than he needed to, or faster than necessary, but I think Lomachenko is also economical. I haven't seen Jones fight in a while, but I know Jones was a very good amateur, I saw his robbery loss against Park Si Han, but he was a more aggressive fighter than Lomachenko, and he had a lot of fights, must have taken more wear and tear by Lomachenko's age now. I think we disagree too strongly for this to be a good topic of discussion.

We don't know how much training he did in the 8 months between beating Gamboa and starting camp. No it's not a good sign that the opponent being drained is his best chance, but at Davis's age, when he's still maturing, has struggled to make 130 several times, moved up, is coming back down, I think it could heavily favour Santa Cruz.

He's a very young fighter, but I agree, no reason for him not to step up now.

Povetkin vs Whyte II announced today, earlier than I expected. I've never been so confident about a fighter winning a rematch after losing the first fight. I know who you'll be roeoting for, but do you have a prediction yet?

Gold's picture

Yeah, it's just an interesting story I heard. I can't remember if I saw it on twitter or a forum.

Disagree because Mayweather would stand in front of guys like he did versus Canelo and make them miss, he didn't have to move a lot in the ring. Pivoting and doing quick twitch footwork like that which relies on speed is going to decline. That's why I compared him to Roy Jones, Roy Jones did not have a lot of miles before he suddenly fell of a cliff. I'd argue it was at least partially because of coming down in weight but his athleticism dropped off significantly and he couldn't execute what he used to do. Okay, that's fine.

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure he looked bad in some pictures in that time frame. He made 130 and looked good versus Nunez a year ago, I'm assuming if the fight was made at 130 he will be able to make it, everything optically about the fight looks like it is set up to put Davis on the next level as a star but that doesn't necessarily mean he will win.

It's just that with his talent level he needs to get his career moving and I don't know if he has the promotional support to do so. He's likely going to have to get into a mandatory position given his skill level so.

I wouldn't be as confident as you are, I think the narrative that Whyte was super improved and was totally in control was false. I think Whyte will win but I have to question how good his training and sparring will be with a three month turnaround. I doubt he would be able to fight this quickly again in the US, they usually give out 6 month medical suspensions if guys get KO'd that badly.

Champion97's picture

Granted, he looked comfortable as he moved, but in his last few fights, he was active on his feet, changedd direction, moved around the ring for sure, I don't see how you can dispute that, I agree it was his own movement and pace which is why he still did the 12 rounds so comfortably in his mid-late thirties, but I think Lomachenko is the same in that regard. True, certainly when it comes to twitch fibres, but I think it's more about technique and positioning than speed. It's been too long since I've seen Jones Jr fight to comment, but I know he declined a lot after coming back down in weight. Time will tell, it will be interesting to see how well Lomachenko ages.

Yes, but in his mid twenties, he's still maturing, and I think age is an overlooked factor when it comes to making weight, Higa missed weight and lost to Rosales, Diego De La Hoya was hospitalised after making weight, Munguia was likely very drained against Hogan, and I think this is because young fighters are naturally a bigger than in theid previous fight, and it's the last pound or even less, which is a killer, and they have to drain themselves bad to make the weight, that's why I was confident Donaire would make 118 against Burnett, because while you made some good points, he'd made the weight in his late twenties. If the deck was stacked in his favour, I think the fight would be at 135, I suppose Santa Cruz might not have agreed to that, but can you imagine what a big ask it would be for Santa Cruz at 135?

I suppose a fighter is better off being fast tracked than being another Andrade, who shows a lot of skill in the ring, is obviously a good fighter, but his career stalls out.

You seem to have changed sides of the argument when it comes to the important of recovering in between fights, because you said the opposite thing about Kovalev having less time between Yarde and Canelo, I'm not trying to catch you out, but have you changed your opinion at all? I think the reason your opinion is different for this fight is because Kovalev won and Whyte lost? If so, I agree mentally Whyte needs more time, but physically, we both know sustained beatings like the the one Kovalev took in round 8 against Yarde, are usually more damaging than 1 punch KOs. I agree it was the dominant 4 rounds the SkySports commentary team said it was, but Whyte took very little damage, didn't really pick up any miles until he got sparked, it can think of at least 3 fights where Whyte took more damage than he did against Povetkin.

A question on the subject of Whyte vs Povetkin is what do you think of Coldwell as a trainer? I know you don't like most of his fighters, but I think he's a very underrated trainer, had a good game plan for Bellew against Haye and Usyk, told Price to retire after the Hammer loss, and he recently said in an interview that Povetkin was doing better than the commentators said.

Gold's picture

When he did it was economical and not wasted, one could argue that pivoting and moving as quickly as Lomachenko does is wasted. It will be interesting to see for sure, I could be wrong and Lomachenko could have more longevity, but as the Loma vs. Lopez matchup shows, Top Rank doesn't mind trying to cash him out now at 32 and young guys like Haney are only getting better, so his career could only be getting harder but at least he will get matchups if he wants them.

I don't think those are good examples to draw from, like with the Higa fight it was known that the promoter was trying to turn him around too quickly for someone who cuts as much weight as Higa did. The Munguia one is probably the best example but that's why I'm counting on that Tank is putting in work with Floyd, this is a huge fight for his career. I was 100% wrong about Donaire, I get where you are coming from with Tank's weight but I think he is putting in the work and was confident he could make 130. I agree that would have stacked it even more but the fight loses the little credibility it has if it is at 135 in my opinion. As you said it would be a huge ask.

Yeah and I'm not necessarily saying fast tracked, just looking at his recent competition none of those guys are going to progress his career. Abreu is a good start in moving him up in levels.

Normally I would agree but Whyte got sparked out cold. It wasn't a "flash KO" like someone could argue for example Pirog vs. Jacobs was, where he wouldn't have beat the count but he was 100% awake by the 10 count. Whyte actually got sparked out, he wouldn't have beat a 60 count. I could be wrong about this but Kovalev's damage is more accumulation damage that will add up where being KO'd like Whyte could make the brain more vunerable in the short term. Plus as you said, Whyte has accumulated damage throughout his career. Maybe Povetkin cracked his chin with that KO and his punch resistance won't be the same.

I don't know, was he training Whyte for that fight? I wouldn't blame him if he was considering how short of a timespan whoever was training him had. If he thinks Povetkin was doing better than the commentators that probably is a good place to start. I don't know enough about him to say I guess.

Champion97's picture

Yes, and when considering how unbeatable Lomachenko has looked since he knocked out Martinez, it's good he's slowly declining in terms of seeing good fights.

You don't think Higa being at an age where his natural frame increasing was a factor? The reason I wouldn't count on that is because he had 8 months when none of us know what he was doing, I don't see why he'll work harder now than before. Do you not think De La Hoya's age was a factor for the same reason as Higa? If so, what suggests that wasn't the case? And on a different but not unrelated topic, why was De La Hoya fighting at 122 after he'd been to hospital just as a result of making the weight? I don't expect you to know the answer, but where's the logic behind that? You said before you don't think he wanted to continue against Rios, but does it not seem likely weight was a factor? You've said you don't think my examples are good, but do you disagree that age is a factor when it comes to making weight?

I'm glad you didn't misunderstand me, I didn't think it was a contradiction you've proven it wasn't. That makes sense, Whyte would be likely a lot less damaged by being sparked if he hadn't already taken serious damage against Joshua, Chisora, and Parker, he took damage against Rivas and Helenius as well, he's learned the hard way in boxing, I suppose it proves fighters should be well schooled as amateurs to avoid taking the beatings Whyte has in the process of learning. I disagree on Kovalev and I think the way the Canelo fight ended looks good for the argument it was too soon, we've disagreed in the past on Kovalev's chin, but we agree Canelo's natural weight is less than 168, how ddidd he knock Kovalev out to the head with such little volume when Kovalev wasn't shot? If Kovalev hadd a good chin and had had enough time to recover. If you agree on reflection Kovalev needed more time, which you may or may not, I suppose that doesn't look good for Whyte. I know he was sparked, but do you really think he wouldn't have beaten a 60 count if he hadn't been woken up? I'd consider Povetkin cracking his chin more likely if he'd taken another sustained beating. Let's not forget, Povetkin took damage as well in the 4th round, was down twice, he's taken a lot of damage in 3 of his last 4 fights, and at his age, I think he can afford less miles.

Yes he was, and the game plan was going well, even though it wasn't as dominant from Whyte as the commentary said, he was still winning. Whyte has said he isn't making changes for the rematch so questions will be answered.

Gold's picture

He hasn't looked unbeatable, he was arguably even with Linares and got put down. We've already went over this in detail though so I don't want to go into it again.

That's not the case with Davis, sure it will logically get harder for him to make 130 as he ages but he should be able to make 130. His weight issues in the past have been because of discipline, not frame.

He knocked Kovalev out to the head because he went to the body to slow him down first so he could land the clean shots he did land to the head. Maybe not 60 literally, but that is about as knocked out as someone can get, he was KO'd before he even hit the ground and he had to be woken up so he could be put on a stool. Povetkin's KD's definitely add miles, he has a lot of miles and he is old so he could drop off at any time. We'll see if it matters or not though.

Yeah, he was still winning and winning clearly but by rewatching you can clearly see Povetkin trying to set the uppercut up, so obviously there was a big flaw in Whyte's gameplan by leaning over too much and leaving himself open.

Champion97's picture

I'll rephrase that, he hasn't been in a 50/50 fight in a while if ever. What I'm saying is, the fact that he's a top 5 pound for pound fighter who's starting to decline makes his fights more interesting. True that he hasn't looked unbeatable, I said the wrong thing there.

He seems big for the weight, it's hard to base his size on how he does in the ring because he hasn't been challenged enough for his opponents to use a size advantage if they had one. It will be interesting to see if he makes weight against Santa Cruz.

I'd agree if Kovalev's legs had slowed down more, there wasn't much body work from Canelo, that there was will have taken a toll and I know he did better in rounds 9 and 10, but overall, he wasn't able to attack the body as he usually does because Kovalev is good at stopping opponents cutting enough distance to attack the body. 'Kill the body, and the head will die', but Kovalev seemed to have too much left for Canelo to have knocked so much out of him to the body that he couldn't take 2 head shots from a middleweight, of course it makes sense what you're saying, but the reason I disagree is because of Canelo's relatively low volume.

I think as knocked out as you can be is when you're carried out on a stretcher, like Stevens against Lemieux, but it was a devastating KO, no doubt. It's fairly often the fighter is out before they hit the canvas when they're caught cold like that.

I think for Whyte, it's all about awareness, Povetkin is old, has slow legs, can only throw so many punches, the danger for Whyte is being set up, I don't think it's a case of him knowing what Povetkin is doing but being unable to stop it. Do you think Whyte's career is over if he loses the rematch?

Gold's picture

Agreed with that completely, just a misunderstanding.

It would be easier to tell if we had access to the fight night weights, unfortunately we don't. I definitely tink he will but I understand why someone would think he wouldn't.

To be fair, Kovalev was definitely declined from his peak level and we know his out of the ring lifestyle is not good at all. Who knows what Kovalev's motivation level was, but I don't think the issue with the fight was that it was too soon.

I think we are getting too close into an argument where we are splitting hairs, it will very likely be the KO of the year and for good reason.

Yeah I agree, it is about awareness but the problem is that if he is too cautious and doesn't do enough he may actually do worse and put himself in more trouble, so it is a balance. I don't think it is necessarily over but it depends on how bad the loss is. If he loses on points and doesn't get beat up I don't think it is over. If he loses he may take more high risk matchups like the Parker rematch, he may get a fight with Ruiz, etc that could theoretically put him back in title contention. If he gets KOd again it probably is over, it would be a long road back.

Champion97's picture

We've disagreed in the past on fight night weights, I think they're unreliable, but I know they are worth taking into consideration. If he makes weight, shows no signs of being drained, that backs up your argument.

He has declined, but he isn't shot, Yarde and Eleider couldn't knock him out with 2 headshots like that, they are 175s who hit hard. I know conditioning affects how you hold up, and vodka explains why he's so weak to the body, but he wasn't in worse shape than against Yarde and and Eleider, let's also remember Kovalev improved his stamina with McGirt, had a trainer he respected.

I'm also not as easily convinced because I think for sheer power, Canelo is slightly overrated, only because of the chins of Khan and Kirkland, but even if that's true, he's timing and accuracy is brilliant, might be the best body puncher in boxing.

It would be a candidate in any year, but this year, I can't think of a better one.

I agree, but certainly for 6 rounds, he can be aware, and keep throwing the jab, which is the biggest problem for Povetkin, Povetkin needs Whyte to fight him in the pocket, he can't get into range and land the counter right hand over Whyte's faster jabs. I think the first 3 rounds of the first fight took more out of Povetkin than Whyte.

I think it would be over, because I don't think he can beat Parker again, or Ruiz, if he can't beat a 41 year old Povetkin, I don't think time is on his side either, with the damage he's taken. It's incredible how well Whyte has done financially for a fighter who's never fought for a world title, not necessarily praising him, but he's a PPV fighter, hasn't done too bad.

I think Fury vs Wilder III will be announced in the next week or so for December 19, not the most exciting fight of the year after the rematch, but stil worth watching live in the early hours of the morning. I don't know if Fury will do what he did in the rematch, or if he'll go back to what he did for 11 rounds in the first fight.

Gold's picture

We'll see, I'm obviously confident he will but given his record I understand why people would be skeptical.

I don't want to get into a big argument about this but I think Yarde is a big puncher but is not super effective at maximizing it (at least at a high level from what we've seen so far) and Eleider Alvarez is a good but not big puncher, the Kovalev fight made people think he is a bigger puncher than he actually is.

I think that is fair, but in comparison with Yarde and Eleider Alvarez, Canelo is a more effective puncher than they are, like you said his timing and accuracy are great.

Yeah, using his jab while still landing power punches to slow the aged Povetkin down will be key. The problem is that Whyte's footwork has always been questionable, as we saw part of the reason he got sparked by Povetkin is that Povetkin was able to step in at a good angle to land the uppercut.

I understand why you are saying that, just that weirder things have happened so I wouldn't 100% count him out. Whyte is not trash, he's a good title contender level fighter, but he was never the boogeyman some made him out to be. That is a testament to the UK PPV market honestly, good for him that he has made what he has. I don't know if he has really maximized it as much as if he would have taken the Joshua rematch as the WBO mandatory but I don't actually know the finances, like you said he has certainly done well.

I think it is still a good fight, I will never count out a fighter with Wilder's power, he can spark anyone out but we saw that Fury was on another level. I hope Wilder has taken the time to improve himself instead of buying into the excuses others around him have brought. I think Fury would do well to mix it up a little more but we saw the way he fought in the first fight played into Wilder's style, where in the second fight he totally exploited what he found out after he got knocked down in round 12.

Champion97's picture

It might be time to agree to disagree on Kovalev fighting Canelo too soon or not, both backed up our opinions.

And on the flip side, if we consider what Povetkin should do, I'd say he should make himself small and target the body, he did that to an extent the first time, but he should use body shots more to slow Whyte down than just to set up a headshot, it's hard to find a tactic for Povetkin to negate Whyte's jab. It's his lack of amateur background, it's not as bad as it used to be, and he didn't lose his balance and positioning when he missed against Povetkin, but it was only 4-5 rounds, and his balance was all over the place even against Rivas. I don't know how much the KO itself had to do with his footwork, or if it was just him thinking he was more dangerous than Povetkin in the pocket, looking for a great set up and KO.

I mostly agree, but I don't think Fury has less of a chance if he goes back to what he did in the first fight, I think Fury's only issue the first time was inactivity. I don't see any reason to think Wilder has a better shot if Fury boxes on the back foot or comes forward and pushes him around on the jab. Wilder will do everything right in terms of training, but even if he had a plan B, which he doesn't, he doesn't know what to prepare for, it wouldn't surprise me if Fury out boxed him southpaw, it's very hard to find good sparring partners to prepare for Fury.

I don't know if you have time, but I think you'll find my prediction and game plan analyses for the Charlo fights interesting.

Gold's picture

I think that one thing we should consider is that in general, fighters used to have way faster turn around than three months regardless of how well they did. Is that good for their long term health? Surely not, but it didn't seem to affect performance then.

Yeah, I agree with what you are saying mostly. I don't think there is a lot of mystery about what Whyte needs to do in the rematch.

The reason why I would argue Wilder has a better shot if Fury tries to box him is that Wilder had an easier time setting up his shots in the first fight and I don't think that was just the surprise of Fury's style in the second fight, but that he has difficulties trying to time Fury going forward and disrupting his rhythm. I agree it is hard to simulate Fury, he is a huge anomaly in terms of his size and style(s).

I don't agree with your Jermell vs. Rosario prediction, I wouldn't think too much about Harrison/Williams as a comparison. On a very simple level Harrison played more into Jermell's weaknesses of being able to box Jermell and make him less composed, which doesn't seem like something Rosario would do. Williams likely has a weak chin and and Rosario's pressure style was able to capitalize on that. Not to discount Rosario's boxing ability, but I don't think he is better or at least much better than Jermell. I think Rosario overperformed/Williams underperformed and Charlo underperformed in the first fight versus Harrison. As you also noted he lost to Gallimore and won by SD versus Cota. I think Jermell and Rosario will trade as you said, it will be a good fight but Charlo has a great chin, will come out on top and KO Rosario.

I think Jermall vs. Derevyanchenko is a very close fight, for comparison, the closest I've seen for betting odds for Jermell vs. Rosario is Jermell -360 and Rosario +275 whereas Jermall vs. Derevyanchenko is a near pick'em at -137 for Charlo and +110 for Derevyanchenko, which I think are fair odds. I agree with your assessment and favor Jermall. I think that Dereyvanchenko will have significant success in the fight for the reasons you mentioned, his output and technical ability. The Korobov fight is a valid reason to be worried about Jermall in this fight but that was very short notice. However, I think that Jermall's power and timing will allow him to knick rounds by landing the more telling shots, and he will be able to do enough to win, I don't know if Charlo will win by KO but I think he will knock Dereyvanchenko down and I think I will predict a close points win. I'm not the first one to say this but Dereyvanchenko has been vulnerable to the uppercut and that's one of Jermall's money punches, so I wouldn't be shocked if he put Dereyvanchenko down and out with that shot. I think one has to ask about the miles of Dereyvanchenko despite his short pro career, he's 34 and had tough fights versus Jacobs and Golovkin, and his fight versus Culcay wasn't easy by any means. He's had a really tough schedule since Jacobs. Good breakdowns though as usual, I understand why you give the reasons you do.

Champion97's picture

I know, but they all did, Kovalev didn't have long, Canelo had what I believe was the perfect amount of time, I suppose that backs up that the short rest won't be much of a factor in Whyte vs Povetkin. I think you make a good point there, fitness isn't always a reflection of health, I think a good example is fighters with miles, who have tough training camps, do everything right in camp, are very physically fit, but have slurred speech.

The reason I disagree is because in the first fight, we saw technical brilliance from Fury, I just didn't see any issues for Fury other than the slow start because of the ring rust and him tiring going into the late rounds, I think now, he could easily shut Wilder out. If you're Breland, you can't get your fighter adapted to fighting one particular style because you don't know what that style is, and on the flip side, I think Hill has an easy job in this fight, because as dangerous as Wilder is, he isn't unpredictable. I definitely think Wilder should be lighter in the third fight, trying to match Fury for strength is a bad idea, and he sacrificed output by being heavy, I don't think being light was much of a problem in the first fight, only late on when Fury was able to lean on him.

I appreciate you reading my break downs man.

I didn't think you would agree, I'm in the minority, and it's a bold prediction. True about Harrison in the first fight, but I thought he obliged Charlo in the second fight, I agree Rosario can't box on the back foot like Harrison. I don't know, I don't think he has a good chin, but I wouldn't base his chin on the Charlo and Rosario fights, I haven't seen him hurt often enough to say he has a weak chin. I think he's a better boxer than Charlo because he uses his jab with more purpose and has better footwork. I agree he under performed in the first fight, and to an lesser degree in the second fight, but it's the second Harrison fight I revisited when I wrote my break down. I don't think Rosario over performed against Williams, I think he under performed against Gallimore and Cota and I disagree about Williams because he seemed to be wary of Rosario's power. I agree on Charlo's chin, it wouldn't surprise me if Charlo came out on top, but when it comes to Rosario's durability, it's worth noting that this is his second fight with a proper camp and nutritionist, so him not taking punishment well in the past might be more a case of that than his chin, because even though you can't put muscle in your chin, you can condition and toughen yourself to stand up to shots better. Do you agree Rosario's finish against Williams was more impressive than Charlo's against Harrison?

I don't know how much you know about odds and bookies, but you should talk to my dad, he knows all about it. I stand by what I said about bookies because of how many times in fights, fighters have made a mockery of the odds, I understand they're successful businessmen, which itself means they can't be idiots, but it doesn't take a genuis to do their job. From what I understand, they need better knowledge of what the public think than of boxing itself to do their job.

I could see Charlo knocking rounds by landing the better shots, but the reason I don't think he will is because I don't think he'll do enough, not because he doesn't have the output, but because it's hard to find an opening against Derevyanchenko, he's well schooled, has the peekabo style, and I don't think Charlo can find enough openings to win many 10-9 rounds. I hadn't picked up on him being particularly vulnerable to the uppercut, but it makes sense now you mention it, with how he gets into range to be hit with it. I don't think Derevyanchenko has taken enough damage for his miles to be a factor, but the Golovkin fight was very damaging.

Looks like Crawford vs Brook is next, probably a cash out for Brook.

Gold's picture

Yeah, but my point is that the product wasn't worse at the time. As in the boxers didn't look worse at the time. I think the way it is now is better but guys fighting 3 or even 4 times a year shouldn't be looked down upon if they can manage it.

Yeah, but even though we had Fury winning there were rounds of the fight in the first one where Wilder won boxing because it was low output enough where Wilder could knick some rounds. Why fight that low output style which favors Wilder who can pick his spots. I agree he should be lighter, he can't match Fury in that respect so he should go to his own strengths.

Have you seen Rosario vs. Gallimore and Coto? I haven't so I won't comment too much on those, but I would be skeptical of saying he is a better boxer with those results. I think the reason Williams was wary of Rosario's power was at least in part because he couldn't take the punches, not just because of Rosario's power itself. We'll see about the nutritionist, that's something that can help but I think Charlo overall is a level above Rosario even if ROsario did better versus Williams than Charlo did versus Harrison.

Right but as you said, they wouldn't be in business if they were wrong more than they were right. I'm not saying it is something to totally base it off of, that's why bookies can make money gambling when guys don't set the odds right, but I think it is interesting to draw a comparison between the two fights.

That's the problem, will his output be enough? I think Jermall's jab will be important to put some points if he can start to land it regularly. Dereyvanchenko had something crazy like 400 amateur fights plus 24 WSB fights, in my view he is at the point where he could start dropping off, but we'll see.

Trash fight. I don't know how much blame should go on Crawford/his team but surely some has to go on him at this point. I don't know how they couldn't at least make the Teixeira fight to make some level of intrigue. Who knows what Brook will look like at 147, as you said it seems like a cash out for him. Given the Pacquiao vs. Crawford fight didn't happen Pacquiao vs. Mikey seems likely unless you've seen something I haven't.

Champion97's picture

They were only in against each other, I think it's hard to see things in the ring if both fighters are in the same boat, and sometimes for a weakness to be exploited, the opponent has to not have that weakness, obviously this isn't always the case, because a fighter with a weak chin can exploit it on the other side, but in general, it's mostly about the match up and not the level of the fighters when it comes to entertaining fights. You could argue the chin and resistance aspect is what would have been exploited in the old days if they were coming back too soon, but to be honest, the science of it isn't something I understand, I just learn from boxing experts, and I've heard good commentators say fighters need 6-8 months after a tough fight, and there wouldn't be medical suspensions if there wasn't a good reason for fighters to take time between fights. No doubt fights were as tough in those days as now, but training camps weren't, I think fighters used small fights as training for big fights in the old days, that might be why fighters have upset losses. I think at the absolute top, when fighters are in unification bouts, 2 is always the right amount, but if any fighter has an easy fight which is just better than nothing, they should aim for 3 fights. I think 2 fights were enough for Golovkin in 2017, but not 16 or 18, because Wade and Martirosyan were not enough of a challenge to take up a fight slot in this era, he wouldn't have needed much preparation for those fights. I think it depends on the opposition.

I know, but I'm saying ring rust is the reason for the low output. It's a good point, but for Fury, why not take full advantage of being unpredictable? He has it in the tank to throw a lot more punches over 12 rounds than in the first fight, but I don't even think that matters, because his reflexes, judgement of distance are back now, but they weren't in 2018. I don't think Wilder is a good pressure fighter, doesn't do a good job of cutting distance, and he's used to being the smaller and less strong fighter, it was a right hand off the back foot that started the last onslaught against Ortiz the first time. Which is lower risk for Fury is very arguable, but neither are high risk. I don't think Wilder can pick his spots now because of how Fury sees and reacts to everything that comes at him.

Not the whole fights, I've seen highlights of the Cota fight and the ending round of the Gallimore fight, I might be naive to base a prediction on 1 fight, but I was so impressed by Rosario against Williams, the finish, using the jab to set up that uppercut, was phenomenal, that was a top draw shot. Possible it was about his chin, but I thought he seemed more wary than he's seemed in other fights, I thought he took more chances against Charlo, not in terms of output, but in terms of his guard and his movement. Another reason I'm leaning towards Rosario is because I think Charlo has a lot of flaws, I had him behind against Harrison, I remember him struggling technically against Jackson, a well past prime Trout gave him a fair few problems, I definitely think Jermall is better, and against Williams, I saw better technique, more method, better finishing, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Charlo won because it's only one fight.

Can't say they DKSAB, but their business doesn't predominantly depend on boxing knowledge, I'll say that with confidence.

I think he'll struggle to get his jab off, with the movement of Derevyanchenko, he used his jab well against Trout, and Korobov as the fight went on, but I don't see him settling down and getting into a rhythm against Derevyanchenko, because of how elusive a fighter Derevyanchenko is. Possible, amateur and WSB fights are still wear and tear, shots landed, but it's the 12 round wars, being knocked down and beaten up which does the real damage from what I've seen, and I haven't known any cases of short careers being linked to damage from the amateurs.

I agree, the DeLuca fight was a statement, but he's past his prime, no doubt, and making 147 will be very tough, he'll have to cut muscle, and Brook's eye sockets are a concern for him, the speed of Crawford could cause a break, and Brook will likely panic if that happens. The only thing I've seen which you might not are reports Mikey is after the Pacquiao fight, but I haven't heard much about that fight.

Are you watching ShowBox live tonight? I hoped Boxnation woule get it, but unfortunately not.

Gold's picture

Sure, but you can see the tape. They do not look worse from the eye test due to increased fights/wear and objectively we have better training and nutrition now. Not sure what you mean by the point about chins, but as I said, they didn't actually look worse or seemingly increase KOs/knockdowns. That was before day before weigh-ins though so it is kind of an apples to oranges comparison, plus they had 6/8 ounce gloves for a long time instead of 8/10. It is true that they used to take small fights as tune-ups and such, but just from looking at records of guys like SRR and Armstrong you can see that they fought quality opposition at a higher frequency. When SRR lost to LaMotta (SRR was also floored out of the ring) he rematched him and won three weeks later, which is insane to think of today. If they are consistently facing top level guys then yeah, two could be enough, but if they want to take 3-4 fights and have a middle and/or lower level guy, why not I guess.

Perhaps, but I think it was hard for him to pull the trigger versus Wilder in that style compared to coming forward. I agree, he should be unpredictable but also why go away from something that works? Wilder can only change so much. I don't think Wilder is a good pressure fighter either but when he can fight at the tempo he wants he can land his money punches. When Wilder landed on Ortiz, he had been setting that shot up and Ortiz was fighting at his tempo. I think that the more aggressive style of Fury is more effective for those reasons.

I think you could say the same about Rosario having flaws, but he had the more impressive recent victory and boxing is a "what have you done for me lately" type of business. I hope its a good fight though of course.

The size difference of Charlo vs. Derevyanchenko also may be interesting, I know Charlo came up from 154 but he's 6'0 punching down on 5'9 Derevyanchenko who also crouches down a lot. That's the thing, you wouldn't have heard of guys who were shot from the amateurs because they didn't get that far in the pro ranks.

I didn't know about ShoBox so I didn't watch it, but I will be watching tonight for Showtime

Champion97's picture

What I mean is, not their chins in terms of how naturally tough they are, but their overall resistance, because that's the main issue with coming back to soon in my opinion. That's a good point, they went the full 15 rounds often enough, I'll admit boxing history and his it compares to boxing today isn't my strongest area, I know enough to talk about it, but the history is something I want to learn more about. What's your point about the same day weigh ins? Good point about the gloves, 2 ounces is more than it seems, that might explain why there was more facial damage in those days. True, but in general, fighters fought more often and losses weren't as hard to take, rematches were easier to make, Robinson fought Lamotta 5 times, might be going off topic there, I'm still convinced based what I believe about opposition, that the fights were deceptive when the two fighters are in the same boat, so eye test in general, when rating both guys in the same fight, isn't reliable in boxing, a good example of what I'm saying also applies to skill, which is why I disagreed more strongly with you than ever about KSI and Paul's skill level not being as bad, because a bum can look good against another bum. You make some great points man, I didn't know it was only 3 weeks he had. On a different but not unrelated topic, while you could argue that boxing was worse for long term health in the old days, Archie Moore and Tommy Burns lived to a good age, which surprised me to see, I've known about Moore and his long career for years, but I didn't realise until recently that he lived to 81. It seems we're in agreement about how often fighters should fight today.

I think it was about ring rust, I see where you're coming from, because it's hard to settle down and not be too cautious against as dangerous an opponent as Wilder, but I think when he wasn't able to get enough shots off to clearly win the round, it was about ring rust, I just think his timing was off, his judgement of distance hadn't fully come back, but when it comes to pulling the trigger, I think he would throw less punches if he boxed on the back foot, but if he clearly wins every round, does it matter?

Good question, he's going to something else that works in my opinion, and being as unpredictable as he can. It's interesting to analyse which style is lower risk for Fury, I think Wilder's chance of winning is very slim either way, I don't know if he has a better chance of Fury misjudging the distance, getting caught coming in, or getting hit with a short shot on the inside, because I can't think of any 1% risks for Fury other than those 3, and 2 of those 3 are, though unlikely, slightly possible if Fury does what he did last time. It's worth noting that Fury admitted Wilder almost knocked him out in round 1 of the rematch, but I suppose we should take what Fury says with a pinch of salt. Wilder isn't fighting at the tempo he wants either way, for different reasons, but Wilder can't control the tempo whether he's pushed onto his back foot and beaten up or chasing shadows and swinging for the fences while Fury comfortably uses the ring and picks him off on the outside.

I'm not confident Rosario wins, I'm very confident it will be a great fight.

Crouching down a lot might be the reason he's susceptible to the uppercut, I don't see size being much of a factor either way, Charlo was massive at 154 and Derevyanchenko is squat and strong.

It just seems unlikely a fighter would be shot based on his amateur career, Povetkin, Rigondeaux, have aged very well, had long amateur careers.

Gold's picture

That's where I think the day before vs. same day weigh ins come into play. With day before weigh-ins guys cut way more weight which from everything I've heard lowers punch resistance, which makes sense logically. Back then with day of weigh ins guys didn't have camps built around cutting weight and didn't have the lowered punch resistance if their weight cut was bad or they cut a lot of weight. What I'm saying is that if you look at a fighter who had loads of fights from back then and you compare the tape to fighters of today, rather than against each other, they do not look worse. I don't know what I said about KSI and Logan Paul. Yeah, it was crazy back then, that is probably a fast turnaround for even back then but guys fought a lot more often. I think there is an element of genetic resistance to CTE, some guys have punishing careers and get away with seemingly nothing while others have average damage and are in awful shape. Foreman seems to be in good shape and he took significant damage in his career for example. I don't know if I've asked you this before but you should ask your dad if he has seen the movie Raging Bull if you haven't. It is an all-time classic movie that is a biography of LaMotta and gives some history on what it was like during that era through LaMotta's life but also focuses on his life outside of the ring.

It would be really impressive if he did do that and he just boxed Wilder off the backfoot for twelve rounds pointing him easily. It isn't that I think Fury can't win that way, I thought he did in the first fight and I agree he is in better shape now than then, but that I think that it is a tougher strategy to execute because of their strengths and weaknesses. Another point I'd make is that Fury isn't making good use of his weight advantage boxing him like that, we know Wilder is not close to as strong as Fury is, so why not try to take some strength out of him on the inside and in clinches like he did in the rematch? I think he could get caught coming in of course but he had a very hard time reading Fury's feints. I would take that with a grain of salt, Fury got hit clean but he didn't look shook up. As we know he exaggerates and it would be favorable for him to speak well of Wilder's ability and power. That's the thing, I thought the tempo in the first fight was more favorable to Wilder, but we may have to agree to disagree on that.

I think part of the problem is that someone who are extremely successful and had a long amateur career like Rigondeaux aren't going to trade a lot and will have a lot of fights that are easy for them. Also, guys that are good in the amateurs are more likely to be good professionals, and if they are bad unless they come from notable countries/had a lot of hype they will be quickly forgotten. Sorry I can't come up with examples, but I think Chakhkiev is one I've heard before. Had a great but long amateur career obviously but didn't get to where he should have as a professional.

Champion97's picture

That makes sense, I know being weight drained lowers punch resistance, more to the body in terms of when the punches land, but in terms of health risks, it's the danger of losing protective fluid which protects the brain, a lot of cases of boxers dying or being permanently damaged are linked to the fighter being weight drained, I think that's one of the reasons why heavyweight boxing isn't more dangerous, because they don't have to make weight, and there's no thinning of the fluid around the brain, the neurology aspect might be something you know more about than me. There were less weight categories in the old days, and fighters fighters didn't cut weight and take advantage of rehydration time like they can do now. Something else that's worth noting is something Tony Bellew said, I know you don't like him, but like Paulie, as unprofessional as he can be, and as biased as he is, he's a good analyst when he isn't biased, and he was saying people don't realise camps can put miles on fighters, which wasn't an issue in the old days. It's a good point you make, and it backs up what you say about the short rest between fights not being an issue in the old days, but given how much more taxing it is for fighters now, they need a lot longer, and for that reason, I still think Kovalev had too little time between Yarde and Canelo, probably time to agree to disagree on that. You said KSI and Paul's skill level wasn't as bad as people said, but I couldn't have disagreed strongly enough, because I know first hand, fighters can look good when they shadow box, or on the pads, very soon after they first start boxing, and if they are both beginners, with no legitimate boxing experience, neither of them are good enough to exploit the other because they are both so unskilled, most boxing fans have been to the gym and got as good as KSI and Paul. My point here is not my disapproval of the fight, it's that a bum can look like a good fighter against another bum, that's all I'm saying. My dad has seen snippets of the Raging Bull but I've seen none of it, I will watch it when I have time, I remember you said De Niro had a few bouts to get into character.

True, I know Roger Mayweather took more punishment than Floyd, but he died recently as we both know, and his health had been poor for many years, he wasn't well enough to be in Floyd's corner against Canelo in 2013, which shows how much his career damaged him even if it wasn't the most damaging career, it's possible Roger was determined to make Floyd a good defensive fighter so his career didn't damage him as much.

I'm not confident one is significantly harder than the other for Fury, but I believe what he did in the second fight is higher risk, and it isn't just that he's in better shape now, it's that he's fighting often enough, which goes beyond conditioning, training and sparring obviously makes a big difference, but for inactive fighters, there is no substitute for fighting. That's a very good point, he doesn't use his strength if boxes on the outside, and he certainly used his strength in the rematch. I think Wilder tired from his own pressure and output, it's very draining to miss as much as he did, and now, I think Fury would defend even more easily, would have faster feet, better stamina, and Wilder would struggle even more to make him work, I suppose if Fury picks him off and moves, Wilder controls his own pace, but Fury forces him to work if he does what he did last time, but either way, I don't think Wilder can force Fury to work harder than he wants to in the third fight. I think Fury is easily good enough to make changes during the fight, why not go back to what he was doing in the first fight, for 6 rounds, and then take advantage of his size in the second half? Or judge it based on how many shots Wilder has missed and how much he's taken out of himself?

Rigondeaux has been down a lot of times in his professional career, and even if he hadn't, he was still sharp, miles weren't an issue, when he was in his mid thirties. We'll see, but I'd be surprised if Derevyanchenko's miles were a factor in this fight and I don't believe it's much if a factor, agree to disagree I suppose.

I was misinformed about Haney vs Russell, Russell was just running his mouth, Haney vs Gamboa is apparently in the works, I don't think that fight's necessary.

Gold's picture

Yeah, the protective fluid for the brain is what I've heard is the real concern about it. Maybe not more dangerous but also punch resistance doesn't scale up with size (at least as much as power) and so there are more KOs, and heavyweights are less skillful on average than the lower weights. Camps definitely do, even outside of that when you hear about guys going too hard in sparring and getting damaged that way. I think it is fair to say agree to disagree. It depends how bad people were saying it was. I don't think KSI vs. Paul was an awful look for the sport, it wasn't skilled but you could tell they at least trained for it. Would Tyson vs. Roy Jones be worse in your opinion? Or better? Yeah he trained under LaMotta and took some amateur fights to get into character, method acting.

I'd hope that is always a thought when guys train their kids, it would be an awful feeling to for them to see their kid have that kind of damage.

I agree it is draining to miss and especially miss loading up like Wilder did, it will be interesting to see what Fury's weight is, I think that will somewhat give away what he wants to do. I think he can mix it up if he needs to, could be a good idea but I don't know how quick he will be boxing off the back foot if he comes in heavier, I'm sure he will be good enough to make it work though.

I think that just has to do with his punch resistance, he didn't have a good chin but he had good recovery in his prime.

That's what I had figured, and he is blaming Mayweather and Haymon for it not happening. I think it was a bad strategic option for Haney to sign with Matchroom, maybe it is good money and he's happy with that but Eddie wasn't able to make the Lomachenko fight and he doesn't really have options around the weight like if he would have signed with PBC or Top Rank. As you said Haney vs. Gamboa is not necessary and I'd say not interesting.

Champion97's picture

True, a well conditioned heavyweight has more body weight to absorb the power of the opponent, but it's not enough to compensate for how much harder heavyweights punch. That's another reason I think Fury is almost unbeatable, because he's arguably the most technically skilled fighter in boxing, one of the most, and I definitely think he's the best defensive heavyweight of all time. Most boxing fans have trained, the local amateur boxing squads train very hard and a better and more serious fighters than those clowns, they don't get put at the top of fight cards, I know why it got top billing, I understand what peope had to gain from the fight, but I wouldn't read anything into the eye test because they were only challenged by each other. Good question, KSI vs Paul was more of an insult to boxing, but Jones vs Tyson is more dangerous, if it turns out to be an exhibition as I hope it does, it's not worse, but if it's a real fight, it's worse.

Definitely, I don't think the damage he did in the rematch was directly related to weight, but his strength was. I think he should come in lighter, he'll be stronger than Wilder if he's 245, and it gives him more output and movement, if the plan is to have weight to use in the second half, maybe 260 is a good balance, but he used his size at the end of the first fight, at 256.

I know he had good recovery, but what I'm saying is, it was still damage he took when he got dropped, obviously not as damaging as if he'd taken sustained beatings, but it was still damage, and given how well he aged, it seems likley he didn't already have a lot of miles going into his professional career. You already know this, but in amateur boxing, the gloves are bigger, they often have head guards, but fighters don't take anywhere as much damage because there are more standing counts, and because there are more amateur than professional fights, fighters are likely to take less risks in each bout, my point is, I don't believe amateur boxing puts many miles on fighters, and longer amateur careers preserve fighters' careers, whereas professionals who have short amateur careers like Canelo, Whyte, Salido, are likely to age worse, because they are in damaging fights during their learning process.

Gold's picture

That too, but I especially mean with head shots. He is someone who can beat himself but he is a very hard out for any heavyweight in history. Yeah, but the fight itself was not at a level where it made the sport look bad and it surely brought in some new fans, so it was worth it. People knew what it was, they weren't selling it as two guys at a world title level or anything.

Yeah, especially if you watch Rigondeaux's amateur career he was a truly great point fighter. Also, you have to figure like with what Bellew said, guys are training and sparring when they are in the amateurs. Pros often bring in top level amateurs to spar as well. So that is another way guys can get miles in their amateur careers.

Champion97's picture

Although, I've heard many fighters say they can't hurt their opponents when they move up in weight, so although bigger fighters absorbing shots better is less than how much harder they hit, it's still very significant.

I know sparring accidents happen, open sparring can be a bloodbath at times, but with the heavier gloves, with sparring for professional fights, when there is a lot at stake, and a lot of it is technical and strategic, that shouldn't put many miles on the clock. One thing worth considering is how well the trainer manages the sparring. An interesting question is how much of the sparring in a camp should be technique, and how much should be open sparring.

Gold's picture

If you want to watch Yoka vs. Duhaupas just google Canal+ stream and click the first link. Looks like there is this fight, then the co-main, and then Yoka vs. Duhaupas

Champion97's picture

I'm busy at the minute, but I might catch some snippets of the main event, thanks man.

Gold's picture

No problem, it will likely be 30+ minutes until the main event.

Gold's picture

In the ring right now actually.

Gold's picture

I changed to Yoka by late KO/TKO by the way.

Chris M95's picture

guys is there a page up for Chavez jr vs Cazares btw