Sun, 2019-07-14 05:40
What's De La Hoya doing at 122? I assume he was weight drained in this fight.
Sun, 2019-07-14 06:24
He got in a war with Rios and got floored, didn't want to continue after getting up. Looked like more than just weight to me. Rocky Hernandez also lost by KO1, Golden Boy has aggressive matchmaking and it took down two of their guys in one night.
Sun, 2019-07-14 06:32
Right, I will have to catch up at some stage. De La Hoya passed out and was hospitalised late last year, trying to make the weight, I believe he moved up to 126, so it is plausible the weight was the reason, but obviously there could have been other factors, I haven't seen the fight, but fighting at a weight you've put yourself in hospital trying to make seems very foolish. There have been a few of those recently, not just with Golden Boy, Neno Rodriguez lost recently on the Commey vs Beltran undercard, and of course Gill lost to Tinoco.
Sun, 2019-07-14 14:07
Gaibnazarov (2016 Super Lightweight Olympic Gold Medalist, beat Gary Antuanne Russell in the Olympics) lost not long ago as well. I suppose I'd rather see more aggressive matchmaking than promoters guiding prospects to title challenges without any resistance though.
Sun, 2019-07-14 14:37
Well there is nowhere to hide in boxing, fighters have to learn the hard way sooner or later, the only ones who never lose are the special fighters, every other fighter will lose either because he's not good enough, because of inexperience, bad night, wrong weight, whatever the reason, but assuming it is a case of a fighter learning the hard way, that is not only better entertainment wise, not only more interesting if you follow fighter's careers, but it isn't always bad for them, certainly doesn't have to be worse than what those fools who manage Joyce are doing with his career, if you are a phoney in boxing, you will get found out, no fakery in boxing, and Joyce beating Stiverne to a pulp and knocking out Ustinov, when they are both shot, fooling people into thinking he's outdone fighters who struggled with Stiverne and Ustinov in their primes, well I still have to see the fight, but he didn't have a walk in the park against Jennings, and whilst his team seem to be protecting him when they match him against shot fighters, I believe a loss against Pulev or Ortiz 6 months ago, and he would have done a better job against Jennings.
Sun, 2019-07-14 16:48
Agree 100% with the sentiment but it is very difficult to move a heavyweight prospect up currently because of the scarcity of quality opponents. Even mediocre heavyweights are getting big checks in the current market. Guys like Pulev or Ortiz weren't realistic options for a low reward guy like Joyce. I obviously didn't like the Stiverne and Ustinov matchmaking either but I didn't have a problem with Jennings. Going the distance with Jennings may help Joyce's development. I don't know who they will get next but they need to move him quickly due to his age, and that will be tough to do.
Sun, 2019-07-14 18:48
Speaking of boxers fighting on into their 40's, I was looking at the Boxrec schedule and Jorge Arce is apparently scheduled to fight for the first time since 2014 in Mexico on July 20th, the same day McCall is fighting.
Mon, 2019-07-15 04:50
He's 39, he's probably as old a 45 year old heavyweight, so that's not as bad McCall, but 5 years out is extremely tough to come back from, and he has a lot of miles, so it's not much better than McCall.
Mon, 2019-07-15 06:51
Ah, for some reason I thought he had already turned 40. Not sure what the motivation is for him to come back, hopefully it is just a one-off versus a low-level opponent.
Mon, 2019-07-15 05:07
Short term, high risk, low reward, long term, the opposite, 3 years down the line, what harm does an experience related loss do to a prospect? And in the long term, it is not ow reward, prospects need learning fights, Joyce would have learned more from Ortiz or Pulev than Hanks, Stiverne, Ustinov put together, would have made him a better fighter.
I didn't criticise him for the Jennings fight, Jennings is likely top 20 in the division, but the cherry picking from those fools made the Jennings fight higher risk because Joyce wasn't as prepared, because he was used to fighting poor opponents who were never any good, and opponents who are shot. It will help his development, but his previous 3 fights didn't, so he should have had a fight like this at least 6 months back, it's just delaying, and wasting time and messing around with shot fighters just to build hype (people aren't stupid, they know Stiverne and Ustinov were shot, so that didn't work), is the last thing an old prospect needs. It will be tougher to do than it needed to be, will be tougher because they have made the age and time issue a worse issue, I think Joyce is the weakest of all the prospects, granted, I haven't see the Jennings fight yet, but he is oldest, has the least time to improve before he starts to decline, would you favour him to beat Yoka, Dubois, Hrgovic now? Because I wouldn't. Fortunately for NF82, I don't think Joyce will be a world champion.
Mon, 2019-07-15 07:00
My point is that he couldn't have fought Ortiz or Pulev, we now know Haymon was saving Ortiz for the Wilder rematch and Top Rank wants Pulev for the IBF mandatory. Even someone like Jennings was probably hard to get.
It may or may not be cherrypicking, I'd venture to say it wasn't because they know they have to move him quickly, but as I said before it is very hard to get heavyweights that can push prospects at the moment. Getting him in training camps and in the ring even if it is versus guys like Ustinov and Stiverne is better than nothing. My question is who do you think he should face next, or who should he have faced in place of those guys? I wouldn't favor him to beat any of Yoka, Dubois, or Hrgovic but he would be a live underdog.
Mon, 2019-07-15 08:15
How do we know that? We know the fight is agreed, but how do we know that was Haymon's intention before? I do not buy that Joyce and his team couldn't get anyone better than Stiverne, Chisora would have fought him, Ortiz called him out, there were talks of him fighting Price I believe, the list goes on, I don't know if I believe Top Rank wouldn't put Pulev in against Joyce, given the win it would be, and how winnable a fight it might be against a novice like Joyce.
I disagree, they are idiots, Sam Jones, Moralee, they are fools, they don't understand the value of experience, they thought Joyce was closer to being ready than he was. So why did Yoka get the Allen fight? Dubois just fought Gorman, so they weren't proteted from each other, even Kevin Johnson, Tony Thompson, Helenius, these are not opponents which should be hard to get. He should have fought Jennings when he fought Stiverne, he should fight Washington, Kabayel, one of these guys next if he can't get a fight against a top 10 fighter which he probably can't. Yes, but he is oldest and will improve the least, I don't need to see the Jennings fight to know you had him losing, the scores were controversial, and he failed to stop Jennings, he didn't beat Jennings as well as Klitschko, Ortiz, Rivas.
Also, Pernell Whitiker sadly lost his life today as I think you probably already heard, very sad news, 55 is very young to die, and I think it was a car accident, tragic.
Mon, 2019-07-15 08:56
We know because insiders have stated they planned for Wilder to face Ortiz, the Fury rematch, and Kownacki in some order. Chisora and Price are on Matchroom so those fights wouldn't be possible. If he fought Price people would just say the same thing as Stiverne and Ustinov, worthless fight versus a washed opponent. What does Pulev have to gain by fighting Joyce and jeopardizing his IBF mandatory? He's at the end of his career looking for a final big paycheck.
You are proving my point exactly with the level of opponents you are listing off. Someone like Allen, Helenius, ancient Johnson or Thompson, they are not anything to write home about like how Stiverne and Ustinov weren't. Washington is with PBC, that fight won't happen. Dubois vs. Gorman was a different scenario, Warren wanted to match those two prospects against each other. I could see him fighting someone like Helenius or Kabayel in his next fight, but that isn't better than Jennings. My point is that the division is so fractured and everyone values themselves so highly it is very difficult to get good heavyweights as opponents for prospects, the best most can do is to get old guys like Johnson, Mansour, etc.
I heard that and it is very sad, one of the most naturally skilled boxers of all times.
Mon, 2019-07-15 09:58
Ortiz would have been ready for Wilder, I December, and the Fury fight would have been pushed back, but I suppose it depends on how confident they were that Ortiz would beat Joyce, I can believe it, but I think Joyce would have ducked Oritz either way. That's true, it is frustrating because so many heavyweights are with Matchroom, Joyce should sign with Matchroom, forget about Fish Eyes. Disagree on that, Price has not looked anywhere near as vulnerable in his last 3 fights, he is a threat for 4 rounds, Joyce is not a good defensive fighter and Price is a devastating puncher, he is not shot like Stiverne and Ustinov, and I'm 90% sure he would beat them both. Also, and this is just an observation, not necessarily in favour of Price, he is not washed, he would destroy Harrison and Skelton now, how do you think he would have done against Povetkin when he lost to Thompson? Price is not old for a heavyweight, and the miles haven't caught up to him yet, that's oftne what happens, miles add up and a fighter gets old overnight, not like just calendar age when you just inevitably slip gradually, and Price hasn't gotten old overnight yet, not saying the miles aren't a factor at all, but his stamina, chin have always been issues. This is an interesting topic, it's the reason I was referring to when we discussed Mayweather vs Pacquiao (we can agree to disagree on that). Back to the topic at hand, I don't think Price is as good as Jennings, and I think a prime Stiverne would have destroyed him, but Price now is significantly tougher an opponent than a post Wilder Stiverne.
I'm not because I'm not listing opponents who are coming off losses where they look alarmingly bad and are shit to pieces, Johnson is very old, but Ruiz and Dubois couldn't stop him last year, you think they couldn't stop Ustinov and Stiverne? Allen is on a winning steak, is very durable, took Yoka 10, Helenius is like Price, gasses, can be hurt, but can punch extremely hard and isn't shot. Kabayel is in my opinion, that's arguable, but my main point is, he could have fought better opponents than Stiverne and Ustinov, I don't know if the Jennings fight would have happened had he not just been stopped, and I think if Joyce was with Matchroom you would agree with me. I'm just not convinced they are trying to get the best opponents. I think what you are saying is the explanation for Wilder, Golovkin and a lot of other fighters who have been criticised for their opposition. What I will say about Joyce is this, he should never have left Matchroom, that isn't defending Hearn as a honest promoter when it comes to telling the media what's going on with negotiations, but the big fights, the best matches, best boxing bills are on sky, in this country.
Apart from Mayweather, I can't think of a better defensive fighter.
Also, Kovalev vs Yarde is finally announced for August 24, I reckon we'll see Canelo vs Golovkin III this year.
Mon, 2019-07-15 11:07
I'm not really interested in discussing this further, seems like an arduous discussion to continue.
Whitaker is certainly up there with Pep, Locche, Mayweather, etc as the best defensive boxers of all times.
Yeah I saw that. It seems like there may be an impasse upcoming between Golden Boy/Canelo and DAZN if they only approved Golovkin and Canelo as opponents for Canelo and now Canelo is only left with Golovkin who Canelo doesn't want to face.
Mon, 2019-07-15 12:05
OK, but it is slightly frustrating when you leave the discussions when it gets interesting, never mind most of the waffle, but Price is not shot (hard to argue he is), Joyce shouldn't have left Matchroom (that's more an opinion which can be debated), and fighters will a lot of miles but aren't old, are more likely to get old overnight than fighters who are just old, my point is, fighters (not just Mayweather), get less credit then they deserve for beating opponents with miles on the clock, that haven't caught up yet, Canelo beat Cotto when Cotto had a lot of miles, but they hadn't caught up to him, he wasn't much worse in that fight than he was against Mayweather, but against Ali, he was finished.
I don't know if I agree he doesn't want to face him, that's something we can't know, on the one hand, you might think he doesn't want that work again when he doesn't need it, makes sense, but on the other hand, we both know casuals are important when it comes to PPV, they make up the numbers, if optimistic fighters like Klitschko, Donaire say age is just a number, a lot of paying fans will believe it, and they will believe Golovkin is as good as he ever was, and Golovkin is not shot, he is old, but not extremely old, therefore Canelo still gets a lot of credit for beating him, still a big money fight, and he will know it shouldn't be as tough fight as last time, still a tough fight, but not as tough.
Mon, 2019-07-15 12:21
Okay, but that is just the thing, we are at impasses. For example, I would say it is hard to argue Price is not shot, then we would just go back and forth arguing endlessly. I'd rather just wait and let things play out, I'm not a Joyce fan, I'm just saying it is hard to get opponents at heavyweight because it has played out with many of the current prospects and many promoters have voiced it as well.
I've seen some insiders say that he doesn't want to fight Golovkin again which is why I am saying it. Not because he is worried about losing, but because he dislikes Golovkin and doesn't want to give him the platform/payday.
Mon, 2019-07-15 14:08
If you think that differently to me then let's leave it, maybe you were right to leave it before.
It depend on who, some insiders are reliable, others aren't, you put more stock into what the media says than I do, I put more stock into what fighters say than you do, we will not agree on that. That makes sense, but it seems like Canelo might be milking being not only the A-side but the champion, I wonder if he might 'lowball' Golovkin. You seem to be convinced Canelo doesn't want Golovkin, but the fight will sell, do you think the third fight will happen next?
Mon, 2019-07-15 14:35
I wouldn't be surprised if they lowballed Golovkin but you also have to remember it isn't just Golden Boy/GGG Promotions putting up the purse money, DAZN is contributing as well which is why they have a say in what fights they take. I think they will be able to make Canelo vs. Golovkin III for September 14th, DAZN will reach an agreement with Golden Boy/Canelo that they find suitable. If not, as I said before it could get ugly between Golden Boy/Canelo and DAZN.
Apparently Top Rank is planning to make Gvozdyk vs. Beterbiev for the fall. Great fight in my opinion. What do you make of it?
Mon, 2019-07-15 14:52
Good point about DAZN contributing financially. Well we'll see, nothing to do with the network matters if Canelo isn't willing to fight Golovkin, but I think he is and the fight will happen.
Great fight, 50/50 fight, neither veterans, but both experienced enough as professionals, both dangerous, both been down once or twice, both technically skilled, both got good amateur pedigree. I think Gvozdyk will be the favourite because he has the Stevenson win, by far the best win between them, but Beterbiev has a good chance himself, we'll see who's the better fighter, who is the more skilled and adaptable, and how well they take the power. Both have been down, but I saw Gvozdyk get dropped, it was legitimate, but it was about balance, he wasn't too badly hurt if I remember right, but only has Beterbiev been down twice in about 15 fights, he was dropped clean and hurt against Johnson, so I wonder if Beterbiev has a weak chin, and maybe Gvozdyk just doesn't have a granite chin. You?
Mon, 2019-07-15 15:08
I favor Gvozdyk but Beterbiev is a live underdog. Gvozdyk is a bad stylistic matchup for Beterbiev in my opinion, taller and longer fighter with a strong jab, good power, and a tight guard. If I remember correctly Gvozdyk should have been called down versus Stevenson and he was downed and hurt on a clean shot versus Karpensky early on. I think for Beterbiev to win he's going to have to start fast and catch Gvozdyk clean as Karpensky did. The longer it goes on I believe it favors Gvozdyk who has the better boxing ability, as you said Beterbiev doesn't have a strong chin and I believe Gvozdyk could break him down.
Mon, 2019-07-15 17:20
Yeah, just a solid, European style fighter, I think Beterbiev might be harder to prepare for stylistically for the average opponent, but I agree, if anyone has that advantage in this fight, it's Gvozdyk. Still haven't seen the fight, I will see it at some point, but I heard that before. I don't know how many clean shots Gvozdyk took against Stevenson, but if you can hold up against Stevenson's power, your chin isn't weak, still, he has been Down, Gvozdyk, and Beterbiev is a devastating puncher. That's a high risk strategy, but if he does that, it will be interesting, someone will get hurt, either he'll walk into one, Beterbiev, or he'll land clean himself and hurt Gvozdyk, they might both be hurt simultaneously, we saw that with Kudryashov against Makabu. It might ultimately come down to who can recover and come back from being hurt, that was what won Wilder the fight against Ortiz, stamina as well, both have late stoppages, both can still punch in the late rounds, we'll see who has more in the tank.
Mon, 2019-07-15 17:46
Both would be tricky guys to prepare for, I can't imagine there are a lot of guys out there with Gvozdyk's size and style. You should see Stevenson vs. Gvozdyk, I understand why you were weary to see it before but it is a very good fight. Both Stevenson and Gvozdyk should have been called down once more than they were if I remember correctly, but as you said if Gvozdyk had a bad chin he wouldn't have won the fight versus Stevenson. Jack did nothing for five rounds because he was so weary of Stevenson's power. I think it will be difficult for Beterbiev to box Gvozdyk, so that's why I think he should try to close the range early and do damage. If they both threw down it could turn into a great fight like Stevenson vs. Gvozdyk was. I'll also be interested to see what Atlas's gameplan is for Gvozdyk because I think he has done a good job with Gvozdyk in the two fights he's been with him. The fight is very intriguing, certainly one to look forward to in the latter part of the year.
Tue, 2019-07-16 05:31
I just haven't got round to it yet. Jack fought a smart fight against Stevenson, he let Stevenson tire, and after 6 rounds, when Stevenson was gassed, Jack swung the fight in his favour, the fight was going how I expected in rounds 7-9, but Jack is not a puncher, couldn't put Stevenson down, and that is also a testament to the conditioning and heart of Stevenson, to get through not only one torrid round like that but 3, have to give him credit, and in the last 3 rounds, when they were both tired, Stevenson was able to rally, hurt Jack to the body, if Stevenson has landed that shot early, had Jack hurt before he has tired, Jack would likely have been stopped.
Atlas is not only a nasty piece of work but can say stupid things as an analyst, but to be fair to him, he has done a good job as a trainer with Gvozdyk, so yes it will be interesting to see what his game plan is, Beterbiev is not southpaw, and he isn't as fast as Stevenson, but he also has better variety in my opinion, still, I don't think Stevenson and Beterbiev are chalk and cheese, so it shouldn't be too hard for them tactics wise. Gvozdyk does have the better preparation with the Stevenson fight, Beterbiev hasn't had a fighting that magnitude, doesn't have any experience as valuable as that, but we'll see how he deals with pressure, how adaptable he is, because in terms of being technically challenged at all, his adaptability hasn't been tested, but on the other hamd, whilst he has been dropped twice, he is undefeated, so he has gotten off the deck to win, so he is adaptable in that sense, but we'll see if he can survive against Gvozdyk, who is a more methodical attacker than Johnson or Page, if Gvozdyk has him hurt.
Tue, 2019-07-16 06:31
Jack got started a round or two too late though and he couldn't put the pace on him Gvozdyk did. Part of what made Gvozdyk have more success than Jack did was that he pushed the pace early and made Stevenson move. That's what impressed me about Gvozdyk versus Stevenson, he knew what he had to do to win and he executed it, game planning well can get guys far.
Yeah, I agree he has better variety than Stevenson, he also uses the high guard pretty well which is something different than Gvozdyk has seen recently. It is just that Beterbiev's head movement is bad so Gvozdyk should be able to get his jab off versus him.
It seems like we may get Kabayel vs. Joyce next, good fight in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how Joyce deals with the movement of Kabayel. Kabayel isn't Usyk but Joyce had issues with Usyk's movement in WSB, and Kabayel going to try to make it difficult for Joyce to plant his feet and punch.
Tue, 2019-07-16 09:39
I agree it is often about tactics, but the reason Jack didn't push the pace might have been that he knew Stevenson would blow a gasket after 6 rounds, as he did, and he didn't need to force Stevenson to work at a pace for Stevenson to tire, you have to be very cautious against a fighter as dangerous as Stevenson, Jack's blocking abilities were great, but he wasn't able to counter Stevenson when he missed, couldn't put enough points in the bank early. Size might have been factor, it is easier to push the pace and make your opponent work when you have more strength.
Yes, and back to what you were saying about European style fighters with that high guard, ability to do the basics very well, solid jab, I don't know if Gvozdyk can do what Golovkin does, and blast the jab through the guard, but it will be interesting to see if Beterbiev can deal with that jab.
I think Kabayel wins, I thought he beat Chisora by a wide margin, I was shocked the cards were close and it was even an MD. That's a 50/50 fight in my opinion, who do you think wins that?
Tue, 2019-07-16 09:56
Yeah, I understand why Jack took it easy early on versus Stevenson but he should have started earlier because he got in too big of a points hole. That's true about Gvozdyk being bigger than Jack, it was easier for him to push Stevenson.
I haven't seen more than highlights of Chisora vs. Kabayel, is it a decent fight to watch? I would probably favor Joyce slightly due to his work rate which is appealing to a lot of judges, but it will be a tough fight for him. Close to 50/50 like you are saying.
Tue, 2019-07-16 10:44
Not really, wasn't a terrible fight, not too much clinching, not a ridiculously small amount of punches landed, but most of the fight was just Kabayel frustrating Chisora by using lateral movement, Chisora being too slow, plodding forward, unable to walk Kabayel down or find the target, and although Chisora was going forward, I thought Kabayel was beating him to the punch for most of the fight.
Joyce is relentless, but like you said, he struggles with movement, and although Chisora didn't show up against Kabayel like in his last 2 fights, Kabayel's movement was very impressive for a heavyweight, similar to Hughie Fury in that regard, but is a better boxer than Hughie.
Tue, 2019-07-16 11:21
I had heard Chisora's jab was terrible as well in that fight, Joyce should be able to do better in that department. You would rate Kabayel above Hughie Fury? I'm not big on Hughie Fury either but he's probably a top 15-ish heavyweight, fought Parker extremely closely. If so then Kabayel would be a good test for Joyce.
Tue, 2019-07-16 11:36
His tactics were very bad, he was unprepared, wasn't in great shape, looked like he knew nothing about his opponent. I think so, not a lot in it, I think they are fairly similar, but I think Kabayel is just slightly better, I don't think Fury has improved significantly since he fought Parker, and based on what you've seen from him since, do you?
I think it's a case of what is more of a factor, Joyce relentless pressure and output, or Kabayel's movement and illusiveness, because Joyce is stiff, robotic, upright, and can he caught, but based on what I saw from Kabayel against Chisora, there is no way Kabayel can match Joyce for output. I reckon the smaller the ring, the better chance Joyce has.
Tue, 2019-07-16 11:56
Yeah and Chisora is known for having very up and down performances, I would believe it was in part Chisora underperforming. I agree he hasn't improved significantly either, it was just that the opposition was lowered. The only area I could see his performance improving is his physical health is supposedly better now.
I agree that those are the major factors, Joyce will be the A-side so I wouldn't be surprised if it was a smaller ring.
Floyd tough com...
Mon, 2019-07-15 07:59
Can you add Dlamini Vs Penalosa?
It was on the Khan undercard for the WBC silver Featherweight title.
Mon, 2019-07-15 08:29
Just added it
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