Adam Kownacki vs Gerald Washington Scorecard by Gold

scorecard by GOLD



Adam Kownacki

Gerald Washington

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Champion97's picture

You're not going to agree, but this is how I see Joshua vs Miller going down.

I think this will be a great fight, Joshua will use his jab well, early, Miller will do a good job of cutting off the ring, he will pin Joshua on the ropes in round 3 or 4, attack the body, really let the shots go, Joshua will land a few counters, but Miller will soak it up, out hustle Joshua, and probably win the rounds.

I think in the mid rounds, it will be a great fight, it will be back and fourth, high action, Miller will be the one who can push Joshua back, he will hold his ground, but both will attack the body (especially Miller), and Joshua will be able to generate more power, land the harder shots.

I think in rounds 9 and 10, both will be tiring, both trying to take a breather, Miller more so, as the fighter who carries more mass, and the body shots from Joshua will have taken more of a toll than vice verse, and when he takes a step back, takes a gulp of air, Joshua can use the jab to set up that right uppercut, maybe from an angle, if Miller, when he's tired, taken a lot of shots, doesn't see it coming, takes that right uppercut, clean, he is in trouble. I think Joshua will have Miller in big trouble, but Miller will prove to have a granite chin, will take the follow up shots from Joshua, take a beating, but Joshua won't manage to put him down, and he will punch himself out.

I think in the last 2 rounds, both will be spent, but Joshua if they both take a step back, both take a breather, tell each other to bring it, Joshua will be able to steal the points with the jab. I think both will empty their tanks, throw the kitchen sink at their opponent, both land clean shots, neither will able to generate the power they could, earlier in the fight, but Joshua will land more shots, his jab will be mostly the difference, and he will use his experience, will prove to be the better at stealing rounds without needing to push the fight, and he will edge the last 2 rounds.

Gold's picture

I don't really have a lot to say regarding this that I haven't said already. If Miller is as competitive as you believe he will be, it will be a bad look for Joshua.

Champion97's picture

Yeah, not trying to start a debate, just my breakdown on the fight. It will look bad for Joshua if people assume Miller is as bad as you think he is, but some people rate him more highly than you do, but he is unproven, and really, this is the problem with him getting the shot before beating a top 10 heavyweight, has he even beaten a top 20 heavyweight?, I don't think so. I know why he got the shot, Joshua vs Whyte II fell apart because of a financial dispute, Miller would accept a less generous offer, and Joshua wants to make his US debut, fair enough, I think it will be a great fight.

Gold's picture

No, it won't be bad if he blows Miller out as long as it goes a few rounds. It is supposed to be a showcase for Joshua's first fight in the US, and for that to go as successfully as possible he'll want to win in emphatic fashion and look good doing it.

Champion97's picture

What do you mean by 'supposed to be'?, not in the minds of Joshua and his team, they are preparing for a very tough fight, Joshua's aim is to win, you will not hear him talk about Wilder or Fury until after he has beaten Miller, Joshua has that professional approach, you have to give him credit for that, if and when he tastes defeat, he won't be because he overlooked his opponent, and suppose Miller is better than you think, would do what simpmy hasn't proven he can do at this stage, then in that case, preparing for a showcase could cost him the fight. I don't think Joshua's US debut is about making a statement, building his reputation in the US, you are the American, but is he not very popular in the US?

Gold's picture

It's not supposed to be a hard fight, they will bill it as a 50/50 "hard" fight so people will watch. Joshua will show up in shape but I doubt he thinks Miller is a difficult fight at all. They wouldn't have made the fight if it was really a challenging fight, Miller isn't a draw and Joshua brings all the money to the table. Joshua has a huge PPV fight waiting versus the Wilder vs. Fury winner, no reason to risk that. It is about making a statement because Joshua isn't known in the US. That's why Matchroom has been setting up Miller to fight Joshua for a while, he is loud and talks trash so it'll generate hype at the press conferences and such.

Champion97's picture

Accoriding to who? Some people?, yes, the majority? Possibly, but not everyone, and Joshua and his team are prepared for a hard fight, I am 95% sure. That's not what McCracken will get into his head, that is not the way Joshua thinks, he has not shown himself to be the sort of fighter to overlook an opponent, Parker was coming off an MD, had two MDs, looked terrible against Cojanu, he was easy to underestimate, but he is good, Joshua knew not to underestimate him. I disagree on that, they would have done because they believe Joshua is the best, they have been hammering for the Wilder fight (Hearn wants Wilder to ditch the Fury rematch, even though that is not going to happen), they fought Povetkin who is dangerous and not far past his best, the Whyte fight was close, Joshua ducks nobody, I stand by that, 100%. He isn't a draw, I know, how could he be when he hasn't been in a meaningful fight? True, but at the end of the day, Joshua is in the driving seat, his career does not revolve around Wilder or Fury, his job is to do his job, defend the belts, he believes he can beat Wilder, Fury, so he obviously believes he can beat Miller, and although you might sort of quit while your ahead, or you might assume that, if you are Joshua's position, but I don't think Joshua and Hearn think like that, certainly not Joshua, also, let's remember 2 things, the value of a great fight which it takes 2 to make, which will increase Joshua's PPV numbers, 2, Joshua might improve even more with 2 or 3 more fights, and going after easy prey is no way to get learning fights.

Again, you are the American, but I must have mistaken the US for another country if Joshua isn't known in the US, Joshua vs Klitschko brought HBO and Showtime to the same venue, a friend of mine from the US who is also on this site is a big fan of AJ, he has been his favourite fighter for a very long time, so to hear you say he isn't known in the US is a shocker, still, AJ has said it himself, fighting in the US is improtant, not disputing that. They have been building the fight, yes, Miller is a DAZN fighter, but it was surely not the original plan to make Joshua vs Miller before Miller has proven himself, because this would be a bigger fight, would get more buys, if Miller had beaten an Ortiz, Parker, etc. More than Joshua vs Whyte II?, no, after Whyte called Joshua 'a lanky piece of shit' recently, believe me, that fight would generate hype also.

Gold's picture

I'm not going to get into this over AJ again. This kind of fake Matchroom propaganda talk makes me want to see Wilder flatten him. Just realize Miller is a 5 to 1 betting underdog and for good reason.

Joshua is a non-existent draw in the US outside of boxing fans, but he hasn't been pushed at all in the general media. Canelo was already a draw but was still pushed heavily as a part of the DAZN deal but they haven't done that with Joshua yet. Lennox Lewis wasn't a big personality guy either though and sold 300k PPVs versus Golata before he had the Holyfield fights, so it is possible he can become a draw in the US, but I wouldn't say it is certain. I don't know how people are going to take to his personality now, which in my opinion seems very fake and put on for the media. How many buys Joshua vs. Miller gets is kind of irrelevant with the DAZN deal in the US, and how many people in the UK would buy the Whyte fight that wouldn't buy the Miller fight? Probably not a lot, casuals pay to see AJ versus whoever and boxing fans will be interested enough to pay for it still at 20 dollars or whatever the Sky PPV price is. Whyte isn't American so they couldn't have Joshua debut in the US versus him. Whyte would definitely draw more overall though than Miller, just not in the US.

Champion97's picture

Wise. It is nice to get the sense I can make you a little bit angry as well. This sort of jealousy and unfair, bitter talk makes me want to see AJ become undisputed! Fake Matchroom this, Joshua hype that, at the end of the day, you are impossible to please, you criticise him for ducking when he makes every effort to make the big fights, if you just say 'he's the A-side, he won't risk this, he will avoid that', is just assuming any 3 belt champion becomes non-risk taking. Like it or not, not looking past an opponent is a quality, you have to give a fighter with that level of dicipline, credit.

If you say so. A non-boxing fan, who isn't even a casual, won't by a ticket or subscription, not saying there are no benefits to the general media knowing of a fighter, but it is the boxing fans and media that count.

This annoys me, it is very simple, Joshua says all the time, 'I'm not perfect, but I'm trying', the media, set up this fake, wouldn't say boo to a goose character, not Joshua, not Hearn, Hearn told people Joshua told Vitali to fuck off, he didn't have to do that, they are hiding nothing, and people who are just wanting to see AJ lose his temper and take advantage, are jealous, nasty people, if he stands up for himself he is 'breaking character', if he stays humble, he is a fake, stuck between a rock and a hard place, Joshua is a much better role model when he is honest, says look, I'm not perfect, if Miller or Whyte take a dig at me, I'll take a dig back, I want to be a role model, and show people it's ok to lose your temper, rather than I'm perfect, everybody should be like me, nothing can ever make me mad, which AJ, Hearn never built.

Understand this, because either you don't, or you are choosing to disregard it, boxing saves people, a good role model is very improtant, do you realise how much these guys influence kids? AJ, Crolla, these guys are great role models, encourage kids not to be nasty, not to shoot their mouth off, Fury, Khan, these are terrible role models, playing the freedom of speech card just to make themselves feel good by saying nasty things and using 'freedom of speech' as a defence, the whole point of freedom of speech is so that people have the right to criticise their government, not so they can say stupid things. I don't know whether or not you have kids and I am not asking for the answer, but Joshua is a good role model, Fury, Khan, are not.

Very few, AJ is a household name here, Frank Warren can say Fury is a bigger deal now, who is he kidding?, British fans might be biased, not so analytical, but we are loyall, did yiu see how many of us went to Vegas to support Hatton, we don't stay up at 4 am for just any fight, but an AJ fight is not one to miss.

Don't call us casuals just because we are fans of the unified heavyweight champ who turned his life around, beat Klitschko in front of 90,000, in the best heavyweight fight of this decade, loyall dedicated fans in all sport watch fighters fight, I have a friend who goes to ever football/soccer match our City team plays.

Not disputing that was a factor, every fighter wants to fight at MSG, Vegas. The reason he would draw more is because Miller hasn't worked his way up to where Whyte is.

Gold's picture

I'm not going over this again, giving fake information to big up Joshua and Matchroom to make them look perfect is not a conversation I'm going to continue. Realize that casuals sell PPV's, Mayweather vs. McGregor did 4 million buys. Mainstream crossover is extremely important. Miller is a 5 to 1 underdog, this is a showcase fight for Joshua.

Champion97's picture

Fake information? When I want to leave a topic, and you don't, you push, and push, don't respect that someone else doesn't want to talk on that topic, no more personal insults from me, no more threats or macho stuff, I am not giving you the high ground this time, but you are dead wrong, I don't know why, but you have this pseudo idea of Matchroom, you have it in for them, and it is not on, any casual boxing fan would be wise not to listen to you on this, most people have their biases, and you are no exception. Just let go of your stupid grudge, your stupid vendetta, and be fair.

I'm well aware casuals sell PPV's, they are the difference maker, a hardcore boxing fan will pay to watch all sorts of fights, a casual won't pay 5 dollars or pounds to watch a fighter who isn't a draw, but will pay to see AJ just like any other boxing fan, and there are millions of casuals.

Because of the hype, logical match ups, fights that technically should happen, interesting fights, not what sells when it comes to the whole public, unexpected fights, crazy build ups, biggest draws in combat sports, it was always going to sell, but it was also, always going to disappoint, Mayweather was surprised at how terrible McGregor was, he could have stopped him in 1 round, if McGregor isn't a bum, in boxing, there is no such thing as a bum, but that is a separate topic.

Ritson vs Patera, Thurman vs Lopez, Froch vs Groves, Klitschko vs Fury, Joshua vs Whyte, Hall vs Butler, look up those odds, watch the fights.

It isn't a showcase fights, because odds mean very little, and for sure, although you will use Miller's reputation to your advantage, the main thing is, AJ and his team are prepared for a tough fight, it is definitely not a showcase fight, it is not about making a statement, no tune up, it is a tough fight. If it is a tough fight, it will be easier to argue Miller good than Joshua bad, because Miller is dominant, just untested, just hasn't fought anyone in the top 20, he is unbeaten, hasn't been pushed to an SD, hasn't been dropped. There is no reliable argument to say Miller is either top 5 or not top 15, but we know Joshua is very good.

Gold's picture

It is not a "pseudo idea" and I do not have it in for them. Matchroom is not some special truth-telling altruistic promotion. It is like any other promotion in the world, they try to make as much money as possible, market their fighters to be the best even if they aren't, and their fights to be the most competitive even if they aren't. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. Hearn gambled and lost, now Wilder and Fury are making it big on their own and Joshua is fighting non-draw fighters while people talk about the Wilder vs. Fury rematch.

Exception to the rule, five to one underdogs are five to one underdogs for good reason. Bookmakers would be out of business if they were wrong more than they were right.

Odds mean a lot, bookmakers aren't out to lose money. Upsets are upsets for a reason. This is the same as Canelo vs. Fielding which you thought would be competitive even though Canelo was a sixteen to one favorite. You thought it would be a split decision and justified a hundred reasons why Fielding would do well which I doubt you would do if he wasn't a UK Matchroom fighter. Yet he didn't even go four rounds.

Champion97's picture

I know, do you think I don't understand that? To a degree, this is a dog eat dog world, to be a successful businessman, you have to make some enemies, of course they are trying to make money, like everyone else. I don't believe every single thing people say, Hearn will bill fights as great, when they might not be, but at the same time, they have to take risks, just has they are doing, Miller is obviously a risk, we haven't seen him down, he haven't seen him lose 4 rounds, he is unbeaten, of course he's a risk. You're the one who is delusional, because based on your own logic, if you dislike Matchroom so much why do8ng you hate other successful companies?, same with them, it is about money, every fighter wants to make money, you hate them for that, you must hate all millionaires. They have competition now, Wilder vs Fury was great, so was Joshua vs Klitschko, people are talking about the Wilder vs Fury II, more than Joshua vs Miller?, yes, more than the future super fight between Joshua and the winner?, no, Joshua is the one in the driving seat, not Fury, not Wilder. If it was like you said, Matchroom would not be this successful, they match fighters well, if Joshua vs Miller is a great fight, it will be good for Matchroom, andnit will more proof that Hearn delivers, gets the fights, and the fights don't disappoint, so whether they make a lot of money or not, whether you think they are overpaid, or not, people believe Hearn, buy the fights, because the fights, more often than not, are great fights, and both the fighters give it everything, are well matched, just as advertised.

A good reason?, I don't think so, don't look at odds, because they mean very little, especially when a fighter is untested, when there is the unknowable aspect, how can anyone evaluate the odds?, pointless exercise. They are not wrong more than they are right, but they are also wrong fairly often, and even if they get the outcome right, it isn't like they say.

Odds mean little to nothing, because when an upset occurs, everyone is shocked, not just the bookies, everyone most people expect the favourite to win, if you want real odds, get it from boxing people, not bookies. Yes, and Fielding was also expected to lose badly, by British pundits, he didn't want to say it, but Matthew Macklin gave him no chance, I have been closer to on the mark than the bookies more times than vice verse. I promise you, I would, the only way him being a UK Matchroom fighter influenced my opinion was the fact that as a British boxing fan, I have seen a lot of Fielding, but no bias, I wasn't surprised at the result, it was very unpredictable, to be right, you have to be wrong sometimes. I was right about Haye vs Bellew, I was right about Klitschko vs Fury, give me credit for that, I have outsmarted the bookies before. Most importantly, you can't give the bookies credit for Alvarez vs Fielding because most people thought it was a mismatch, I was as wrong as I was right about Haye vs Bellew and Klitschko vs Fury if yiu want to criticise me for that, fine, but the bookies only said what everybody else said.

Gold's picture

Miller is obviously not a risk, that's why they are having him as a showcase for Joshua's first US fight. We haven't seen him down because he hasn't faced anyone good. We haven't seen him lose four rounds because he hasn't faced anyone good. He has had more issues versus bad opponents than you would like to admit. If some guy named Bodgan Dinu can jab him, Joshua is going to keep him at range all night. Matchroom has the most ridiculous PR spin of any promotion out there, only Golden Boy is close in comparison, but idiots actually buy it because there is a massive casual audience in the UK. Joshua vs. Klitschko is irrelevant to this conversation, boxing is a "what have you done for me lately" type of business. That is why people are mad Joshua isn't even fighting Whyte let alone Wilder or Fury. Hearn does not deliver, what happened to Joshua fighting at Wembley? Up in smoke of course because he couldn't even get a fight he has built up forever in Joshua vs. Whyte II to happen. His Matchroom USA fights on DAZN have been terrible and boring mismatches. Golden Boy has had worse fights on paper but has delivered on DAZN with entertaining fights.

How can anyone evaluate the odds? They don't buy into the stupid Matchroom PR machine of Eddie Hearn repeating Miller is dangerous over and over. They see Joshua is a unified champion and Miller hasn't faced a top 10 Heavyweight. Miller is rightfully a five to one underdog. How can you even argue they are wrong fairly often? The business model relies on them setting odds to make money.

"Boxing people" aka who? People who are paid to talk well of fighters on a network? Stupid idea, you are better off looking at betting odds of people who actually have something to lose. There is no way you are better than a professional bookmaker at odds, no need to exaggerate. You have also been wrong about obvious fights where bookmakers were right. That is the exception rather than the rule. Most people knew Alvarez vs. Fielding was a mismatch because they didn't buy into the spin, it was a very predictable fight.

Champion97's picture

He is a risk, for the reasons I just said, that's why he isn't a showcase. He is a tough opponent, they are prepared for a tough fight, champions have to dig deep, they don't train extremely hard and dedicate themselves, have that fire and hunger just to blast guys out who aren't tough opponents.

We can go over this all day long, if he faced anyone good, it is very plausible he would win, because he has beaten everyone he has fought, and it is all well and good to say 'not good', top 40, even top 30 opponents, when you dominate these guys and aren't being pushed, aren't really being challenged most of the time, you want to step up. Dinu was unbeaten, training with Mustafa Muhammad, that's why he boxed well for 2 rounds, Dinu, Washington, Duhaphas are better than you care to admit.

Don't call us idiots just because we bring more to the sport than you glory hunters who have the attitude of only being at all interested in great fighters, the evidence speaks for itself, real fans support fighters and are loyall, you don't have a clue about that, yiu are a glory hunter, you have to admit that. Is it? Come on, it is relevant, because it made Joshua into a star in boxing, 90,000 at Wembley, that will go down in history. He does deliver, that's why Matchroom is as successful as it is, he didn't promise Joshua vs Whyte, Whyte disagree on the money, the Miller fight is happening at MSG, that is not a let down. It is funny how Joshia vs Whyte II is a better fight in your mind now it is not happening. Joshua vs Whyte II was close, Whyte wasn't happy with the money, Hearn gave him the option of taking the fight or taking another fight and going the WBC route, Whyte went with the latter, so there will be a Wembley card, Joshua has been to Wembley many times, nothing wrong with variety, Whyte vs Breazeale would be a good fight, would be a stacked bill if at Wembley, and if Miller is as good as Whyte which he might be, Joshua vs Miller is good a figut as Joshua vs Whyte II, so to use Joshua vs Whyte to your make your point is silly.

I like how mad it's making you, Matchroom are more successful than you can bring yourself to admit. This is not complicated, stop making it out to be a some fraud situation, what you see is what you get, it is just your opinion at the end of the day, SkySports, DAZN, gets the audience. You can evaliate the odds when we know a lot about both fighters, history, but also form, weight, age, vulnerabilities, you cannot evaluate the odds for Joshua vs Miller because is possibly top 5, possibly not top 10. You said it a few weeks ago, just because a fighter hasn't beaten other fighters, doesn't mean he wouldn't, good chance Miller would beat Ortiz, Povetkin. Because I just gave you a lot of examples, I could give you more, I have been right when the bookies have been wrong.

Oh come on man, boxing people, fighters, former fighters, trainers, you should respect them more, they understand boxing, they understand the factors, the physical and mental challanges of the sport.

Exaggerate? That's rich coming from you, even if I was exaggerating, but to quote you my friend, 'what I say is based on fact', I called Fury beating Klitschko, I called Bellew beating Haye, facts, I called Fury winning a UD by 3 or 5 points, I called Bellew beating Haye by late stoppage, facts.

So have you my friend, we are all wrong sometimes. By into the spin? It was a bold prediction, I told why I thought what I thought, nobody knew it was a mismatch, they thought so and they were right, but it wasn't that predictable a fight, I said Fielding would do well before I heard anyone else say a word, I believe my prediction would have been closer to being right but for a few details, and for what it's worth, I predicted the first 4 rounds to be one sided in Alvarez's favour, but that's besides the point, we have both been been wrong before, twice, on this site, I've seen you wrong when everybody else is right, so don't make this about me.

At the end of the day, Joshua is a top heavyweight, is being promoted well, Hearn is the best promoter in the world in a lot of opinions, he is definitely up there, stop being stupid, and stop constantly taking digs at Joshua and Hearn for stupid reasons.

Gold's picture

He is a risk because he hasn't been pushed at all? Same as all the unproven Thai fighters you give the benefit of the doubt to. Joshua will be prepared and will beat Miller easily in this showcase.

Terrible logic, he would likely beat a top opponent because he has beat everyone else he has beat so far? Again, that's not how it works, there amount of guys at each successive level is smaller and smaller. Dinu was a bum, Washington just got destroyed by another obese gimmick fighter in Kownacki, and Duhaupas is a gate keeper at best. He hasn't beat anyone.

Bringing more to the sport by blindly following a promoter? That hurts the sport because it allows promoters like Hearn to do whatever they please and go back on what they say. It is irrelevant now because Joshua can't live off Klitschko forever, and Wilder vs. Fury is the fight everyone is interested in. The fans were promised either Wilder, Fury, or Whyte by Joshua, the fans were promised AJ will be fighting at Wembley. Guess what? He isn't doing either of them. Hearn tried to short Whyte and Whyte didn't want to get screwed over. Fans were specifically promised AJ would be fighting his next fight at Wembley, many booked hotels and travel for a fight that isn't happening because AJ and Hearn deceived the fans. Whyte cannot fill Wembley versus Breazeale of all people, come on man. AJ couldn't fill Wembley versus Povetkin, and he wouldn't have versus Miller either. Miller hasn't fought anyone, Whyte has at least fought relevant opponents. Whyte deserved the fight versus Joshua but Eddie shorted him so Miller gets the opportunity he doesn't deserve.

You are the one that actually gets mad about people's opinions, not me. The fact Miller hasn't fought anyone is exactly why he shouldn't be getting this fight. Oh so that is why Adam Smith is unhappy with the cards Matchroom puts on Sky Sports? Because he is so happy with the product? Look at the Matchroom USA cards, laughable matchups. No you couldn't give more examples, if you were so much better than the bookies you could make quite a fortune selling and using your supposed sage advice.

Many fighters, especially those who are on TV, are extremely biased, push the network agenda, and are worse than listening to nothing.

So what? You also called Matthysse beating Pacquiao and Broner beating Pacquiao, facts. The biases you picked up from the "expert" Paulie certainly effected your perception.

Everyone knew it was a mismatch except you apparently. Top pound for pound fighter versus domestic fighter who was chinned in one round versus the best opponent he faced. What are my worst misses? Gambles on undercard fights?

An idiot could promote Joshua, he is the easiest fighter to promote in the world. Hearn arrogantly thought he could walk into the US and take it over, guess what? His Matchroom USA cards have been trash. If you and others weren't so incredibly biased towards Joshua and Hearn spreading provably false information we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Champion97's picture

I fully understand that an unbeaten fighter might not be as good as his record suggests because he might not have fought anyone, but you are wrong not think more carefully. Takuma Inoue hadn't fought anyone either, Matthysse was old, inactive, etc, I was not confident either of those times. Miller is undefeated, he hasn't come close to losing, it is not that unlikely that he is very good, his opposition has not been terrible, he has beaten top 30 fighters, it has all been too easy for him, he is extremely confident, Joshua has never been outweighed and he is 300lbs plus, and he is not obese like you say, more muscle than fat. We will see, I would not be shocked if it was easy, but if it was as predictable as you say, then there would be no tests in boxing, the whole point of a test is the unknown, we will not find out until fight night, but an unbeaten fighter, Miller's size, who has had an easy time beating top 30 fighters, is 100% a risk. Don't be shocked of it is a great fight.

My logic is based on the obvious possibility of an unbeaten fighter who hasn't been pushed close to his limit, being able to step up a level and win, don't call my logic terrible because you are too arrogant and stubborn to consider what I am saying. He has a good chance against a top opponent because he has beaten everyone so far, and impressed in his last couple of fights, shown improvement. At the end of the day, don't forget I said this shouldn't be happening until Miller beats another top 10 fighter, I said that before I said anything else. That's not how it works? Make it sound like a machine or a factory, again, there is less predictability than you say. I understand that fully, we have been through this before, but it is hard to rank Miller out of the top 10, I think Miller is good, I rank him above Whyte in an, as you say 'head to head' sense, it isn't like there are a lot of fighters at Miller's career stage who are that untested, Joyce, Yoka, unbeaten but still early in their careers, Povetkin, Ortiz, Whyte, we have a much better idea of how good they are. For this very reason, Miller should not be fighting Joshua until he has beaten a top 10 opponent, for the confirmation that he is good, but also the experience, the learning fight he needs.

Here we go, the old 'he's a fat guy', Fury, Bowe, Douglas, Ortiz, ripped to the bone?, no these are heavyweights, Kownacki stopped Szpilka earlier than Wilder, same Szpilka?, no, he stopped Washington earlier than Miller, same Washington?, no, Miller was more dominant on his way to the stoppage than Wilder, same Washington? No, we can go round in circles all day. Dinu is top 40 maybe, 'a bum'? If you like, Miller had a couple of ropey rounds, and then stopped the guy, can't complain. Beating Duhauphas wide is not too bad, I did expect more from him in that fight though. I agree, but at the end of the day, there is a good chance he will be a tough opponent for Joshua, it is not a showcase fight, it is a tough fight, I am 95% sure, but Joshua might over estimate Miller, but because they don't know roughly how good Miller is, better to over estimate than under estimate him.

No, by supporting fighters, by having positive energy, spurring fighters on, paying to watch them fight, what do you want them to do? Boycott Matchroom just because you don't like Hearn and think he is not trustworthy? All promoters, businessmen make enemies, Arum, De La Hoya, Hearn, part of the job, if I am not mistaken, you pay to watch DAZN.

No it doesn't, fans are happy, they see a great fight, fighters make the money they deserve, the sport is hurt?, no the only thing that hurts the sport is people like you ripping on Matchroom fighters and being incredibly negative, acting like your eyes, your time, to good for 'dometic level', which says a lot about your lack of understanding about how fighters work their way up.

No, he isn't living off it, sometimes, the styles don't gel, but Joshua vs Parker was supoosed to be more entertaining. Yes, but what people really want to see is the winner vs Joshua, for all the belts. No they weren't, Joshua said he will try to get Wilder, that wasn't going to happen because of the rematch, Whyte is plan B, he turned down the offer, Fury is as unavailable as Wilder, who else is there who hasn't already got a fight? Screwed over, if he fights Breazeale, he won't get 40% of what he would get against Joshua, 6 million I believe he was offered.

Ok, well you have a point there, but they weren't promised Wembley, that was just the plan, but I suppose they could have been clearer, fans didn't have to book too early, but I suppose it is good to get these things out the way and book in advance, and anything non-refunable is an unnecessary loss, if there is anything, fair enough.

They did not deliberately decieve the fans, making fights is about negotiating, they can't promise anything, they made no guarantees, Joshua was very honest with the fans, therefore, there was no deception.

Depends, the undercard could be important, it wouldn't sell out quickly, maybe the O2, but whichever, Whyte would make a lot less money than of he had accepted the Joshua offer.

All the reasons why Whyte was plan B and Miller was plan C, but again, negotiations didn't go well. So Hearn didn't expect Whyte to take 6 million?

That's not true, you are mad about people who respect Eddie Hearn as a promoter, and at this stage, I am not giving you the high ground any more. I agree.

Examples of what? Bad odds, yes I could, Joshua vs Whyte, supposed to be a mismatch.

No, I'm talking about fighters in their gyms, no bias.

That's not true at all. You were wrong on Jack vs Browne, Groves vs Smith, facts, take a dig at me, I'll take a dig at you. So what? I'll tell you what, those two upsets are called are not erased by two faulty predictions, I proved a lot with those wins I called, give me credit for that, this isn't about me, but I have had highs and lows with my predictions, I'm right more often than not, and with those 2 upsets, I was right as to how the fights would play out.

Again, take a dig at me, I'll take a dig at you, you are the only one who got Lebedev vs Wilson wrong, you are the only one who got Ramirez vs Hart II wrong, we can do this all day, nobody 'knew' it was a mismatch, I explained my reasoning. I don't know, you've had a few, you had a bad day with your scoring with Broner vs Vargas. What are your best calls? As good as my calls over Klitschko vs Fury and Haye vs Bellew?, I don't think so. It was unpredictable, I gave you my reasoning for Alvarez vs Fielding, but just because I git that wrong, does not mean I don't know boxing, I have been following boxing for 7 years. A terrible miss for you was Burnett vs Donaire. I overestimated Fielding, I admit that now. A lot of people make faulty predictions and are right on the money on other occasions.

Why are so many people managed and promoted by Hearn if he is that bad? Hearn has done a lot for Joshua, if the best draw in British boxing doesn't have a good promoter, I don't know what to tell you. They haven't been trash, they haven't been great, but they haven't been that bad.

No, if you didn't have ridiculous, unrealistic expectations, didn't have a stupid vendetta against Joshua and Hearn, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Gold's picture

Not true, Inoue had fought at a Japanese title level which is higher and fought in a title eliminator. Its not that Miller is a total bum, but he objectively does not deserve this title shot and Joshua should be fighting Whyte. He is obese, like I have said before he was much lighter as a kickboxer. There is no reason for him to be so fat. There is footage of him sparring Wlad and he is way smaller than he is now. The whole "Big Baby" thing is just a ridiculous gimmick.

Unproven fighters more often than not do not step up. That is simply the logical progression of anything merit based, there is a small amount of elite fighters like Joshua. There is a lot of predictability when it is a fight with an established champion versus a large underdog. That's why it is called an upset.

Fury 6'9 245-260, Bowe 6'5 235-250, Douglas 6'3 230, Ortiz 6'4 240. A far cry from the obese 300+ lbs 6'4 Miller and even the 6'3 260 Kownacki. Its not that Miller is a bum, it is that without a doubt it should be Joshua vs. Whyte II.

Yes, people should not pay for services if the fights are bad. I don't pay for DAZN because it costs too much for the content. For a month like May with Canelo vs. Jacobs it is definitely worth the price, but that is an unsustainable business model for DAZN. I just re-up free trials. I pay for ESPN+ and Showtime (at a reduced rate) because the content they put on is worth the price.

You think people are happy with Joshua vs. Miller? They sure aren't. All I ask is that they put on competitive fights, Golden Boy has done that on DAZN. No one wants to watch Tevin Farmer vs. some British bum coming off a disputed draw.

We would have seen Joshua vs. Wilder earlier if Hearn didn't lowball with the flat offers. Flat offers are a joke for a PPV, even Parker got a percentage split. Whyte turned it down because he wasn't offered what he was worth. If Whyte fights Breazeale he will be guarenteed a title shot instead of having to deal with Hearn lowballing him over and over.

Wembley was booked and Matchroom publically stated that Joshua's next fight, aka the one he is taking versus Miller at MSG, would be at Wembley. This is exactly what I mean by the rediculous PR machine of Matchroom, what you are saying is objectively false.

They did deceive the fans, they had the date officially booked and announced for Joshua to fight at Wembley which he didn't do.

Where is there any proof he was even offered six million? Hearn should have made the Whyte fight happen even if it cost him more, but I don't think Hearn actually wanted to make that fight when he could have Joshua in a showcase vs Miller. Fans were promised Fury, Wilder, or Whyte by AJ, Wembley was booked, didn't happen of course.

Even if you watch videos like the Mayweather gym picking fights they all have biases.

This is rediculous, you have been wrong so many times about how a fight will turn out because you are so easily biased towards fighters. Browne and Smith were two times your bias luckily turned out for you. You thought Wilder would blow out Fury, I didn't. You thought Uzcategui would beat Plant, I didn't.

I had to pick Lebedev vs. Wilson and Ramirez vs. Hart to have a chance at winning PCOM, not because I believed wholeheartedly in my picks. Again, I can pick obvious fights like Inoue vs. Salapat, your predictions are all over the place so by nature you will get some right by chance. How was Burnett vs. Donaire a terrible miss? The fight ended on a freak injury, when a fighter goes down in weight they will often have stamina issues, we didn't get to see that fight play out entirely.

He has a near monopoly in the UK, he has failed to promote many fighters, most notably Kell Brook. The cards have been trash for Matchroom USA. Andrade vs. Akavov? Doheny vs. Takahashi? Algieri vs. Gonzalez? Those were all terrible, the only good fight was Cano beating Linares which was a Golden Boy fight.

My unrealistic expectations that they actually make fights that they promise?

Champion97's picture

Don't turn nasty on me pal, I get it, I'm defending Matchroom, you don't like it.

Higher, but not much higher. No, he is not obese, he carries fat on top of muscle, he is very physically strong, not a puncher, but he is strong. 30 or 40 lbs of fat is not much for a fighter of Miller's size, he has been at least 272 for about 4 years.

Well, Miller is, Miller would have done had he not got the Joshua shot. There is obviously some predictability, but there is more unpredictability than you realize.

I agree, that is a bad match up, given Carroll didn't win the eliminator.

No, became the same applies to cruiserweights to a degree, Kownacki is easily big enough that being 'obese' means nothing, stop reading into how people look.

Two sides to that story, you can argue all day, back and fourth, there is no right answer, Parker agreed to fight Joshua for 35%, Wilder didn't, that's an end to it.

Fans were not promised one of the three by AJ, he was very clear, plan a, Wilder, plan b, whyte.

Here's another way of looking at it, people aren't that bothered, other people are glass half full, you are glass half empty, other people who have lived through worse than you have don't cry over spilled milk or fights not happening. I'm being fair and realistic, in boxing, there are late changes, just the way it is.

How about this? You respect people's rights to make their own decisions? They like the fights, that's their business, not yours, don't make out like Hearn has been robbing people's bank accounts. Unsustainable? For any Network, a big fight doesn't happen every week, that's why it's a big fight.

Hearn and Joshua, they are A-side, the B-side takes what he's offered, no reason to doibt he got offered 6 million.

Well that's true, but you thought Frank Warren was doing the same with Saunders and the Murray fight.

You are well out of line, I know boxing better than you do, I don't know if you know it, but that's the truth, and the reason is, I'm not some arrogant guy who thinks he knows everything, I am eager to learn, unlike you. Lucky biases? Are you kidding me?, I don't like women getting hit, why would I bias for Browne? Obvious picks, no they are not obvious, I explained my reasoning, you can make excuses, but the facts are, you were wrong. Donaire was proving you wrong with his strength before the injury occured, I told you why Browne and Smith would win, no luck there, and you keep telling me what I got wrong, but you haven't matched the wins that I have called.

All over the place by nature? Don't insult me pal, me calling you a coward because if you believed you were tough, you would have said so by now, that is no worse than taking digs at me for my boxing knowledge. My predictions are good most of the time, there is not a lot in it between me and you for predictions

You got Haye vs Bellew II wrong, I didn't, fact, you got Canizalez vs Lu wrong, I didn't, fact, you got Jennings vs Rivas wrong, I didn't, fact, all just luck, I said who was going to win, and I said why.

Failed to promote Kell Brook? That's ridiculous.

No, they didn't promise. Your lack of understanding of how complicated negotiations can be, your constant desire to tear down a fighter who has don everything that can be asked of him, your ridiculous vendetta against Matchroom.

Gold's picture

You are objectively lying and discussing in bad faith. If you don't accept that fans were 100% promised Joshua would be fighting at Wembley and that Hearn didn't deliver that, I am done with this conversation.

Absolutely unreasonable, you don't think 6'4 240 to 6'4 300 is a big difference? 40 lbs of fat is an extra 13% body fat for someone who is 300 lbs, that is a ton.

Boxing is a sport, throughout history Heavyweights have been in good shape. Gimmick fighters like Miller and Kownacki will not win on the top level.

Hate it when people do this, you are falsely obscuring the details to make Matchroom look like they did nothing wrong. Wilder was not even offered a purse split let alone 35%. He was offered a flat fee. That is a joke and shows Hearn didn't want to make the fight.
He specifically says that fans will ultimately decide, gave fans the choice between Wilder, Fury, and Whyte, absolutely no one wanted Miller, and guess what, we got Miller.

People who will pay for anything, buy anything promoters say, hurt the sport and let promoters get away with mismatches. Hearn should have made the Whyte rematch, but didn't because he'd rather debut Joshua in the US even if it hurts British fans who already paid for hotels and transportation at Wembley.

Hearn objectively did rob people's bank accounts when he booked Wembley for Joshua's next two fights, said Joshua would be fighting there on April 13th, and pulled the fight.

So B sides should just get robbed for the honor of getting to fight for a title? That's what Eddie Hearn would say. There is no proof he was offered six million.

Frank Warren did do that with the Saunders vs. Murray fight.

You don't, I don't know why you have an obsession with Browne. I would have liked to see Donaire go rounds, didn't get to see that. You delete all of your pick history so I couldn't see that even if I wanted to. Just recently I picked Gvozdyk and Plant to win where you didn't.

Haye lied again about how injured he was, the fight should have never happened. I took risks with Lu Bin and Paddy Barnes, I said that at the time. You were completely wrong in how you said Rivas would win, saying Rivas would point Jennings widely.

He objectively failed to promote Kell Brook, Brook was a ten year pro before he fought for a world title. His second best win is old man Senchenko, Jo Jo Dan, or Frankie Gavin. After he won a title he fought bums in the UK before Hearn let him get ruined versus Golovkin and then beat up by his mandatory in Spence. After that, he signed Khan to make the Khan vs. Brook fight but failed to do that.

I linked you to proof they booked Wembley April 13th for AJ. If you cannot admit that Hearn and Matchroom lied about that and pulled out, this conversation is over.

Champion97's picture

I'm lying about nothing, you just can't take me challenging you, and now that I am recovering from the brink of suicide, and have more control, I am able to be calmer, not make it a macho thing, so you can't play the victim.

The April date was lined up, but a particular opponent was not promised. Change of plan, simple as that, nobody else thinks it's the end of the world.

60lbs? Yes I do, I said 30 isn't that much, typing error?, 30lbs of muscle is a lot to put on, he has put on fat in the last couple of years, but has also put on muscle, and is used to fighting at that weight, I could be wrong about him being stronger than Joshua, I don't think he's naturally bigger necessarily, but he has built himself up, we will see on fight night. Over the course of 4 years, you can put on a fair bit of muscle.

Maybe not, but here we go again, fighters at any level deserve respect for getting in that ring, and you can't write them off at any level, no particularly good reason that Kownacki and Miller can't do well at the top level.

What?, hate it when people are fair? They didn't do anything wrong, this is a business pal, you have to make enemies to do well. 100, 000, 000, flat fee. At the end of the day, even if you don't know what the percentage is, if you out earn yourself by a lot, and a real lot, why not take it? Because you think you are worth more?, I can understand that, money for your kids' education, parents' retirement, I do not blame Wilder, I am on nobody's side, you are the one who is biased, not me. Here's my question, where were Wilder's handlers? Why was Wilder left to his own devices with the negotiations? His handlers have a better idea of how much he is worth than he does, should have been negotiations between Hearn, Finkel, DiBella, not Hearn and Wilder. It doesn't prove Hearn didn't want to make the fight, he offers a lot of fighters flat fees, but the negotiations are more complicated when there are two champions, especially when the champion who has defended more times has less belts and is not the draw.

Guess what? Whyte tunred it down, Fury and Wilder have a fight of their own. Some fans wanted Whyte, some wanted Fury, some wanted Wilder, it is tough to please everybody, every champion goes through an unpopular time, he can only fight one opponent, Miller was available, Miller agreed to the terms, simple as that.

No, they don't, because there are only so many fighters who are that good, hard to match them, fans are not lied to, they know what they are getting, if they want to pay to watch fights you don't like, that is up to them, they are not hurting the sport. Again, if people actually lose money, that is not on, I do agree on that, IF, that is the case and not you being drastic.

Hopefully that's refundable, if it wasn't, if Hearn was the thief and cheapskate you make him out to be, I think he would be a lot less popular than he is, he is unpopular, but a lot of it is public banter. I can see how the scenario is not ideal, but if fans don't lose money, then you are overreacting and blowing it well out of proportion.

No, the B-side gets a great opportunity, the chance to become the A-side, that's how it works, they get paid much more than they ever have before. What sort of evidence do you want? No reason to doubt he offered him 6 million, Whyte won't have turned it down because of the actual amount in itself, it is probably a case of pride and principle.

I don't think there is a lot in it for boxing knowledge, neither of us are idiots, but we can both be wrong.

Obsession? You told me I was biased, that was an example of me being right, you being wrong. As you just said, and I picked Bellew and Canizales to win where you didn't. You are out of order telling me, 'I can tell an obvious fight', when you picked Lu to win, after 1 fight, 11 months earlier, so don't tell me about bad predictions that are predictable and obvious.

Right, of course he did. No, he was nowhere near as badly injured as the first time, he had gone through rehabilitation, I think part of it was a mental thing, still, he proved you wrong, Bellew. Right, and I said I would be shocked if Alvarez vs Fielding was a mismatch?, I could have picked Fielding to win and cost myself the two points I still got. I was taking a risk there, we are all wrong sometimes, I am right more often than not, I have called two great upsets, I have done ok. I got the outcome right, unlike you, you got the result wrong.

That's a good point, Brook was not well matched, don't know if the Golovkin fight ruined Brook, let's give Spence credit.

I hope this conversation is over, I'm pig sick of it. For the record, I added Joshua vs TBA on April 13 at Wembley, I knew that, but a switched date is no big deal bar the small possibility on people losing out financially.