Wed, 2018-07-11 15:13
This is a friendly discussion as far as I'm concerned, but I want to put something to you. You weren't that impressed with Mayweather's win over Pacquiao? I was very, very impressed, because yes Pacquiao was past prime and had more miles than Mayweather, but not only is Mayweather older than Pacquiao, but Pacquiao was nowhere near as far past prime as he is now, he didn't get Mayweather one fight too late, and Bradley III shows that (it was in the Vargas dight that he started to slip, and against Horn, he looked like almost a shot fighter), and most of all, I reckon 7/10 people amongst the General public would have tipped Pacquiao to win, and 4/10 in the boxing world would have said Pacquiao was going to win, Mayweather was the favourite, but only a slight favourite, and very few people, 1/10 at the most, predicted it not to be close, and Mayweather win by a minimum of 4 points. In conclusion, Mayweather beat a 36 year old Pacquiao who had been knocked spark out by Marquez, moved up weight after weight, been in wars, yes, but he beat the same 36 year old fighter with miles, as the guy who 95% of us predicted to either beat Mayweather or lose close, so why wasn't that a win that impressed you? Also, you seem to think Pacquiao has a good chin now, seem to think he can keep up his movement and work for a long time against Matthysse do you not? But when it came to talking about Mayweather's win, Pacquiao had loads of miles and beating him at an age disadvantage wasn't that impressive?
Wed, 2018-07-11 17:17
"You weren't that impressed with Mayweather's win over Pacquiao?"
I was impressed to an extent but it isn't as good of a win as Canelo or Corrales for example.
" I was very, very impressed, because yes Pacquiao was past prime and had more miles than Mayweather, but not only is Mayweather older than Pacquiao, but Pacquiao was nowhere near as far past prime as he is now, he didn't get Mayweather one fight too late, and Bradley III shows that (it was in the Vargas dight that he started to slip, and against Horn, he looked like almost a shot fighter)"
Saying that Mayweather is older isn't really that relevant when the age difference isn't that much and like you said Pacquiao had far more miles on him. Saying he isn't as far past his prime as he is now, well that's true but he's shot now, he had already been knocked out cold by the time Mayweather got to him, the invincibility that surrounded him was already gone. The last of prime Pacquiao was versus Margarito in my opinion, even though he won easily that fight put some miles on him when he already had a lot.
"I reckon 7/10 people amongst the General public would have tipped Pacquiao to win, and 4/10 in the boxing world would have said Pacquiao was going to win, Mayweather was the favourite, but only a slight favourite, and very few people, 1/10 at the most, predicted it not to be close, and Mayweather win by a minimum of 4 points."
A lot of people hated Mayweather, he plays the heel so public perception was always going to be skewed regarding him. People bought his PPV's for the chance of watching him lose.
"Mayweather beat a 36 year old Pacquiao who had been knocked spark out by Marquez, moved up weight after weight, been in wars, yes, but he beat the same 36 year old fighter with miles, as the guy who 95% of us predicted to either beat Mayweather or lose close, so why wasn't that a win that impressed you?"
Don't think it was 95%, but it is just a very boring fight where it was clear Pacquiao had seen better days, it wasn't like Canelo or Corrales where he beat a prime undefeated champion easily. He won clearly versus Pacquiao but it was not a dominating shutout like those fights.
"Also, you seem to think Pacquiao has a good chin now, seem to think he can keep up his movement and work for a long time against Matthysse do you not? But when it came to talking about Mayweather's win, Pacquiao had loads of miles and beating him at an age disadvantage wasn't that impressive?"
Because I never rated Matthysse highly who lost to Zab Judah, Danny Garcia and Viktor Postol and I definitely don't rate him now at Welterweight.
Sat, 2018-07-14 07:06
'I was impressed to an extent but it isn't as good of a win as Canelo or Corrales for example'.
I still disagree, because he beat Manny Pacquiao, to be honest, Corrales was a win that some people have forgotten about, but that was a very impressive win, agree on that!, Canelo, impressive win, absolutely, but bear in mind that he wasn't at his best at that point, not that it was an off night, but he was still learning, then again, I guess Pacquiao was past his best like we have both said, but Pacquiao is better than Canelo I would say, close though.
'Saying that Mayweather is older isn't really that relevant when the age difference isn't that much'.
I think it is, a year or two, not much, but when you are 38, beat a 36 year old, you are at an age disadvantage, and you win despite that, that is always impressive, always an achievement, you are analytical, great, but don't forget the basics.
'Pacquiao had far more miles on him'.
More miles, not far more, not sure if the age difference balances it out, it is tough to say, but Mayweather wasn't fresh at 38, not at all, terrible hand issues, arm issues and remember, he had two tough, toll taking fights against Chino in 2014, took a significant amount of punishment in both fights, more punishment than Pacquiao took since Marquez, the Rios and Algieri fights were all him, he didn't struggle at all in either of those fights, Mayweather had to get hit, strive to win I think 8 rounds against Chino.
'Saying he isn't as far past his prime as he is now, well that's true but he's shot now, he had already been knocked out cold by the time Mayweather got to him, the invincibility that surrounded him was already gone'.
Is he? Well if he's completely shot, he won't beat Matthysse, and Horn would have beaten him better than he did, he is well past his best, but Morales against Garcia, Ali against Holmes, Tyson against McBride and Williams, Guerrero against Figueroa, that's what I call shot, Pacquiao is declining fast now, but he isn't completely over the hill yet I don't think. One shot, explosive, it puts miles on you, but it is not as toll taking as getting beaten up, and to me, although the Marquez knockout is part of the punishment he has endured, the difference between now and 3 years ago, is that then, although Pacquiao had been knocked out, we saw no signs of Pacquiao being more declined that Mayweather, not in the 3 fights between Marquez 4 and Mayweather, not in the fight after Mayweather, but now, we've seen a fight which he looked like he was ageing in, and one which he looked well past his best in, I think the miles might have caught up with him when he simply got older, maybe as well, the sharp punches he took against Mayweather and Bradley, might have just added more miles, but no, 39 years old, looked old in 2 fights, that's Pacquiao now, when Mayweather beat him, 36 years old, looking less far into decline than Mayweather the previous year, 1-2 years younger than Mayweather, past his prime at 36 and with miles? Yes, further past his prime than Mayweather was? No, so actually, I'm not sure he even was further past prime, maybe slightly, but not so much, nowhere near enough that that wasn't the best win of Mayweather's career, or top 3, top 5 at the very least.
'A lot of people hated Mayweather, he plays the heel so public perception was always going to be skewed regarding him. People bought his PPV's for the chance of watching him lose'.
Means nothing when talking about the interior of the boxing community, publicly, 'good vs evil, woman beater vs humble guy', yeah all that stuff, agree on that, casual fans can think all sorts. But no, forget personality, the opinions inside the boxing world, a good 4/10 people saying he would win, 5/10 people saying he would win close, that had almost nothing to do with his personality.
'Don't think it was 95%, but it is just a very boring fight where it was clear Pacquiao had seen better days, it wasn't like Canelo or Corrales where he beat a prime undefeated champion easily. He won clearly versus Pacquiao but it was not a dominating shutout like those fights'.
You don't think 19/20 people thought he would either win close or not win?, what then?, 90?85?, 80?, it definitely wasn't any less than that and probably more like 90 or maybe even 95 like I said. More 'boring' than any Mayweather fight which is one sided? Why did Pacquiao look so much younger against Bradley than against Mayweather?, and against Vargas, he looked younger than against Mayweather, why did Klitschko look so much younger against Joshua than against Fury?, this isn't rocket science, Pacquiao was nullified, with intelligence, extreme skill, 1/1 billion sort of talent, I mean, no, that was not about age, not at all, that was about size, skill, calibre, they were BOTH past their best, one with more miles, the other, more injury prone, and a year or two older, and to a degree, age is age, an unbeaten record is an unbeaten record, height is height, power is power!, and you shouldn't nitpick too much. As I said, a 23 year old fighter isn't at his best, he fought Mayweather too early, had he fought him later, he could have done a lot better. Maybe Mayweather being hurt by Pacquiao in a round, having 1 bad round, shows you that Pacquiao had that in him, both had seen better says, aside from round 4, I think the Pacquiao fight was more or less as one sided as the Canelo fight.
I think this topic here is more about Matthysse vs Pacquiao than Mayweather vs Pacquiao.
All seems a bit convenient to me. Something I think you are forgetting, and that happens when you are intelligent and insightful, you forget the basics, when you as hard as Matthysse, a lot of things are discounted, if Pacquiao still has a good chin, whoch is what you said, not me, at 39, then in 36, he can't have been that damaged. It isn't about rating Matthysse for defensive skill, I don't, but what I'm saying is that Matthysse, despite lacking skill at world level, has knocked out Lamont Peterson, and others, he has ruined some careers I think, my point is, he hits so hard, that is doesn't even always matter about skill, age etc, if he hits you, you could be done, and if Pacquiao was and is as faded as you say, which now I think he NEARLY is, if he has as many miles, then he cannot take punishment from Matthysse the same way I can't lift a car, when he gets hit, at 39, with a lot of miles, he will get smashed, and if Pacquiao is as faded as you say, he can't use the minute, sustain work rate, movement against an experienced pressure fighter like Matthysse who rarely ends a fight any way but to knock the other guy out, against a fighter whi will push him, knows how to make you work, also, guys like Pacquiao, who move a lot, when that's part of their style, to expend energy, when they get old, they have to tire. I think Matthysse is much better at setting up an opponent than you think, he has 36KOs for a reason. All it takes, is one humanly inevitable lousy move, lapse in concentration from Pacquiao, he can be ahead on the cards, he can be making Matthysse look terrible, but it takes one punch, and a 39 with as many miles as we both think he has, with his natural size as well, he will get knocked out, and if it isn't a great shit, he gets hurt, gets up, what can his recovery possibly be like now?
Sat, 2018-07-14 07:57
You are focusing too much on the name value of Manny Pacquiao versus the fighters that were actually in the ring. Mayweather was only a 6/5 favorite versus Corrales who was considered to be a top pound for pound fighter and went on to win two more world titles and beat Casamayor, Frietas, and of course the legendary first fight versus Castillo. I disagree with the narrative I've seen in quite a few places that Canelo was too green for Mayweather. Canelo had just beat Trout and beat Lara (I thought he lost but it was close) a year after losing to Mayweather.
Miles on a fighter is always more important than calendar age, a boxer can be shot by their late twenties. Floyd fought in a style that meant he didn't take a lot of damage, unlike Pacquiao, which was smart because it prolonged his career.
Pacquiao did have far more miles on him, I don't think that is disputable. Versus Maidana was the only time Floyd ever got busted up in his career. Pacquiao fought in wars versus Morales and Marquez who knocked him out cold which adds up over time. Mayweather's hand issues didn't affect his physical abilities outside of his punching power which didn't matter in the late Mayweather era because he was trying to outbox and outpoint his opponents.
As I've said before, Pacquiao is completely shot compared to his peak level, but him being shot today is still better than Matthysse today. We did see Pacquiao look worse before he got to Mayweather outside of being knocked out by Marquez who is an ATG. He didn't step on the gas versus Mosley when he should have stopped him and he looked like he had lost a step versus Marquez in the third fight and versus Bradley in the first fight. By the time he fought Floyd, Pacquiao who was famed for his explosive power hadn't knocked anyone out in five years. He was past his prime. Mayweather was not at his peak for the Maidana fights and after but he was still the all-time great Floyd. Maidana had a good stylistic matchup and a good gameplan which took him a long way in the first fight. Pacquiao has a style that relies too much on athleticism which does not age well, Floyd's style does rely on reflexes and athleticism to an extent but is more so about ring craft and ring IQ.
If you don't think Floyd divided even the most passionate boxing fans than you must not have been paying attention at the time. Anyone who had watched the two intensively and without bias would have seen Floyd was a much better fighter coming into the Pacquiao bout because Pacquiao had declined significantly physically and mentally.
Mayweather is a beatable fighter at his peak, he is not prime Roy Jones Jr, he just never had the right matchup, Tommy Hearns, Ray Leonard, etc. where he would have been really challenged. Oscar looked good versus Floyd and Oscar had a ton of miles on him. Pacquiao looked so much younger against Bradley than against Mayweather because Bradley isn't even comparable to Floyd as a fighter both in terms of level and style. Same with Vargas and Fury, different styles and different levels. It's like talking about Bernard Hopkins beating Kelly Pavlik at 43 years old, yeah Bernard was an old ass man but he was very smart, didn't fight in a style that was physically punishing and worked to maintain his body. Mayweather was similar but not as extreme. Pacquiao, on the other hand, had slipped significantly in physical ability and mental motivation from when he stopped Cotto. Canelo was 23 but he had a lot of experience by the time he got to Floyd, the issue with Canelo in that fight was the style he fought in, not his abilities at 23. To an extent Canelo did what got him to the dance, he tried to box and counter punch, but versus one of the greatest pure boxers of all times in Floyd Mayweather with a significant weight advantage that is a terrible strategy. Pacquiao winning rounds at that stage in his career versus Mayweather shows that the fight would have been very competitive if it happened in 2009 and Pacquiao could have won. Pacquiao won a few rounds definitively versus Mayweather, Canelo won a round and looked terrible.
Matthysse hasn't knocked anyone world level out in over five years and has lost to every quality outside boxer he has faced in his career. His supposedly unbelievable power didn't help him versus Postol. Pacquiao is an old man, his motivation and physical skill is very questionable at this point so Matthysse has a chance, it just isn't a good one.
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