Vasyl Lomachenko vs Guillermo Rigondeaux Scorecard by Champion97

scorecard by CHAMPION97



Vasyl Lomachenko

Guillermo Rigondeaux

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What did you think of the fight?

Champion97's picture

I thought it was a masterclass from Lomachenko, he's a better fighter than I gave him credit for. Not only was Lomachenko much bigger, younger than Rigondeaux, but he also nullified an opponent with 7 centimetres more reach than him, he, with some ease, controlled the fight with his jab, inevitably, got irritated with the relentless dirty tactics from Rigondeaux, but didn't get too angry, he just let the referee do his job, was more than happy to see several times warned Rigondeaux take the punishment of losing a point. I think what we talked about last year was a factor in this fight, Rigondeaux is an exceptional fighter, but he is no Crawford, no Mayweather, and quite frankly, no Lomachenko either, he does not have the output to back up his offensive ability, we said it, work rate is an attribute, and Rigondeaux didn't have the mentality, couldn't physically throw caution to the wind, and didn't throw in the volume any fighter has to when they are been technically beaten the way he was, disappointing from Rigondeaux.

People can get upset with Rigondeaux, I don't blame them, they have a right to argue they've been short-changed, but I think what happened was, Rigondeaux was 5-7 points behind with 6 rounds to do, he was the one who was going to really tire, natural size, youth against him, he had badly lost the battle of the jabs, he had tried to clinch excessively, the referee had taken action against him, it was his opponent who was fighting dirty, but able to get away with it, when he had tried that trick of doubling over, staring at the canvas, he wasn't always catching a break, when he was, he hadn't managed to land anything clean which he his opponent couldn't follow up, and he was just blind to all the shots which were coming his way, Lomachenko was able to land the shots even when Rigondeaux was making for a weird, awkward target, he had hurt his hand as well, he didn't believe in his own ability to win the fight, he couldn't convince himself he had a chance, so he quit, I don't think he regrets it, but he probably is sorry for the fans.


It was a very masterful performance by Lomachenko. I always thought he was elite, but this solidified it for me. I'm really surprised how easy he made the fight. There was only one time I saw Lomachenko get mad at Rigondeaux's tactics. But yeah, the stuff we talked about him having issues with in the past came up in this fight. He just wouldn't throw anything after a couple rounds. Although I felt the first round could've went either way. What do you think is next for Lomachenko and Rigondeaux.

I agree. This was a very big fight and for it to end the way it did is pretty disappointing. I think that nothing was going right for him in the fight, he just decided to give up.

What did you think of Degale getting upset this Saturday?

Champion97's picture

People aren't giving him nearly enough credit. Me too, especially in terms of the reach, he just seemed ti disarm Rigondeaux in that regard, it was Rigondeaux who needed to take away Lomachenko's tools, early, Lomachenko was bound to finish well. His confidence was going, round after round, he knew he would be countered, Lomachenko as well, using his own work to stop Rigondeaux getting his work off. That was a nothing round, Rigondeaux landed 1 good shot, Lomachenko landed 5-10 jabs I think, nothing meaningful, but from then on, it was all Lomachenko. Rigondeaux, retire, what is there for him?, retire, become a coach, or something, I wish him all the best, but I don't want to see him in the ring again, he's too old, and his professional career never really, really took off. Lomachenko, man, I don't know, it depends, he may decide he wants a unification fight next, if so, target Ogawa, Machado, the new champions, or maybe Berchelt, I'd love to see that fight, maybe he'll take an easier fight next, then again, he won't see Machado and Ogawa as strong champions I don't think. Maybe Lomachenko will decide it is a better option to take a big fight at 135, Mikey Garcia would fight him, if that happens, then it has to be at 135 I think really, that is the biggest fight to be made in boxing I think, I think that should happen, but not next year, Lomachenko may still move up to 135, Linares is a potential opponent, assuming he comes through Gesta which he almost certainly will, that would be an awesome match up, I think Linares holds the bronze medal, he's the biggest threat to Lomachenko and Garcia through 130-140, whichever of the two fights Linares, presumably beats him, makes a huge statement, they should both want to get Linares's belts before their rival has the chance to, now that Lomackenko has beaten Walters, Rigondeaux, I think it is Garcia who needs the Linares fight more.

I guess the criticism I can give him, is believe in yourself, always, don't let the doubt win, but that is all I can say, I mean, he didn't believe he could possibly win, he wasn't in the right frame of mind to fight.

I thought it was an outstanding performance from Truax, he was relentless, Degale looked physically weak at times, he was able to do good work, punch off the ropes, block well, in spots, it was a close fight, but Degale couldn't show these strengths for the duration of a lot of rounds, Degale couldn't take the ground away from Truax, and when Truax had to, he let the shots go, and he didn't really fade, he was able to bully Degale, the volume of punches negated Degale's defence, often, he landed at angles, and Degale struggled to ride the shots. Degale looked gone in round 5, he was taking a beating, he was hurt through most of the round, it was sad to see, very happy for Truax though. I think there should be a rematch, I think Degale deserves that, but I do question whether or not we will see any more really good performances from Degale at this level, he is considering retirement, I don't think he will be the same fighter he was, mentally, he must be struggling, he might deide to retire, he's past his best, he's had a great career, but he took a beating, lost, it's always tough, but if he does want to keep fighting, the rematch should be next, if this happens, but he loses again, then I think he should retire, no doubt.

What did you think?

A lot of people wrote Rigondeaux off as too small and too old that's probably why some aren't giving him credit. I give him credit because this is a fight where people who knew all these disadvantages and still picked Rigondeaux, they can't make any excuses if they picked him to win. Just like some guy picked Walters to beat Lomachenko to but after the fight said the layoff affected him even though he knew that was always a factor. I remember Rigondeaux landing a nice body shot, doing somewhat decent in the opening part of the round, then Lomachenko finished the round better and won it for me. That jab of Lomachenko was great saturday night, he was so accurate with it. He would triple up on it and we don't see that much against Rigondeaux. For Rigondeaux, I think retirement might be the best option for him for the reasons you said. It's a shame to he has the talent his career was mismanaged. The other thing is, it was hard enough for him to get a televised fight, now it will be really hard. Lomachenko has so many options. I personally want to see him fight Mikey Garcia next year, or a unification with Berchelt. Ogawa or Machado might be good options to since he could collect the belts. Skill wise the Garcia vs Lomachenko fight is the best fight skill wise to be made. Who would you pick to win Lomachenko vs Garcia? Right now I'm edging Lomachenko,but that can change.

Good point. Do you yhink he had a hand injury or do you think he was looking for a way out, or possibly both?

I only saw highlights, but I do plan on watching the full fight soon. From what I saw Truax was getting the better of Degale for most of the fight. Even though I was rooting for Degale, I'm happy that Truax got the rightful decision. I agree on the rematch, if Degale loses then he should retire for sure.

Tyson Fury is back I think what's your thoughts on that?

Champion97's picture

Sure, that should be taken into account, but it's still a great victory especially the way he outboxed, out smarted him. I can see why they thought he was going to win, they believed Lomachenko to be overrated I think most of them, and believed Rigondeaux was that good, that intelligent a fighter, crazier things have happened in boxing. It doesn't really matter in the end about one round, but yeah it was a nothing round, what is important is that Rigondeaux couldn't follow up, build on any minimal amount of success he had in round 1, but Lomachenko was able to have more success. There is nothing out there for him, and he's old, it is sad, but all we can do is wish him the best, I think he might fight again, he shouldn't, but he might. I think all 3 are dangerous, all three are punchers, but Berchelt has the skills, the level of power that means he is always a threat. I want to say Garcia, the Garcias are top guys, I don't like Lomachenko, but that is all irrelevant, it is a 50/50 fight, Mikey Garcia is bigger, he hits harder, he might even be the better counter puncher, he has the professional experience, but Lomachenko, with the far, far better amateur experience, better variety, faster hands, better footwork, better combination puncher, I think I might just edge Lomachenko for a prediction ispf the fight actually happens, it should, but what a fight, can Lomachenko take a big shot from Mikey Garcia?, can Mikey Garcia think and fight his way through what Lomachenko used to beat Walters and Rigondeaux into submission? Can Garcia go through the gears against Lomachenko, put the pressure on on him?, dictate the pace early?, if Garcia does push Lomachenko to closebto the limit, can Lomachenko get through it, show that adaptability he has hadn't the chance to prove he has yet?

I think he started feeling sorry for himself after maybe 4 rounds, after 6, he stopped believing he could win, I think he probably did hurt his hand a little bit, and that gave him the idea in his head, I think it wasn't as bad as Mayweather's hand against Guerrero, probably not as bad as Canelo's against Smith, Bellew beat Haye with a broken hand, Deontay Wilder is always breaking his hands, no I think that was a very minor problem really, it was just an excuse, really, he'd have been better off being honest like Walters, just saying he knew there was no point in continuing because he lost hope he could possibly win. He had an x-ray, yeah there's bruising, it's not nice, but this is a tough combat sport, it is fighting, you have to man up, there is no fracture, it was a hand he had hardly used in the fight, he showed no signs of wanting to ease off with one hand more than the other, but I don't blame him for using that as an excuse, not that it was a good excuse, because I've seen many fighters get through it, win with worse injuries than that, look at Thurman against Guerrero, Paul Butler had two broken hands in one of his fights between Tete and the Hall rematch.

I thought it was close, but Truax won. Truax seemed to want to win, more than Degale, he took the momentum away from him, put the pressure on him, bullied him, Degale had the heart, the grit to tough it out until the end, win rounds, but he couldn't swing it back in favour. I wonder what that fight against Badou Jack has taken out of him, also, let's remember that he has had 4 fights in a row, which were all tough for him, he took a lot of wear and tear in all of them, especially against Jack, his punch resistance looked weaker than before in the Truax fight.

Now we can talk about that, I'm interested to see what he can bring back into the ring, he still has the size, the talent, the heart, I still think it will bounce back at him, but I think if he stays in shape, takes 2 or even 3 warm up fights in 2018, makes his bldy a temple for a strict, gruelling year, he won't be as good as a fighter as he could have been, that we know, but maybe he'll be able to compete at the top in 2019. What do you think?

It is a good victory for Lomachenko, career defining for sure. Lomachenko should give himself more credit for beating someone as good as Rigondeaux and making it look so easy. I think fans picking Rigondeaux thought Lomachenko was overrated to. They weren't really impressed with him beating Walters or Sosa the way he did, and thought he needed a challenger against a slick boxer like Rigondeaux. I heard that Rigondeaux doesn't really like boxing to begin with and only did it because he was good at it and was better then the alternatives. So maybe that's the best move for Rigondeaux. I think it will be very hard for him to get a big payday in the sport now, or even be shown on tv again. I think the Garcia is a 50/50 fight I edge Lomachenko like 55/45 in the fight. He's shown he has the skills, but can he take a punch from Mikey Garcia and can adjust when things get rough? Those are still questions that need to be answered. The thing is Paulie Malinaggi said the more you move up in weight the less skill advantage you have on your opponent, It's not a huge jump to 135 but still is a jump nonetheless. Do you think this fight is possible for 2018?

I think he was looking for a way out, like you said fighters have had worse hand injuries and still won fights. You have to fight to the very end, Like Haye he tore his achillies and still fought till the very end with Bellew, and achillies injuries are demoralizing because you get your power from your legs.

The Jack fight could've taken a lot out of him. I think Degale makes some fights tougher than they have to be, that's always been my criticism of him.

I'm honestly excited for his return. I'm a pretty big Tyson Fury fan. Even though he says some things I strongly disagree with, I still find some things he does funny, and he makes the heavyweight division more interesting. I think he should take 2 tuneup fights then step up a bit in competition. I really hope we get to see the Joshua fight, I think that's the best fight for Fury, the whole event would be crazy. Imagine Joshua vs Fury in the Wembley in front of 90,000 that would be amazing.

I figured out what I'm doing with the second account I will try to use my cousins account Gmansanders since he doesn't use it.

Champion97's picture

I don't know, I think that's a characteristic, some fighters are just never happy with themselves, and negative thinking keeps them on the wagon. That was a viewpoint I understand, because in boxing, in sport, it's about results, winning, rather than only winning at a certain level, and looking good doing it, he had had 10 fights, not even won them all, I understand that, but the deal there is, ok we have to respect them for having a possibly controversial but still understandable opinion, but they have to hold their hands up now, admit they were wrong, because Lomachenko just beat Rigondeaux into submission in 6 rounds, won everything really, didn't get hit, didn't struggle to find the target, and more importantly, if this is such a meaningless win, then why were these guys saying Rigondeaux was going to win?, Lomachenko must have exceeded their expectations, and I don't like Lomachenko, as a person I mean, he's not the nicest guy, but it's irrelevant. It's possible, Maidana never loved boxing, he did it because he had a knack for fighting, and he needed to provide for his family. I haven't heard that before, but that's good that you listen to Paulie, he certainly makes no secret of the fact that he is against jumping up in weight. The problem is, what other weight can they do it at?, Lomachenko has an atom sized chance at 140, Garcia has an atom sized chance at 130, he couldn't be expected to make that weight even now, let alone when the fight happens. Unlikely I think, but possible, Garcia has got Lipinets to focus on for now, that's a world title fight at 140, he might want to invest 2018 in assignments at that weight, which would scupper the Lomachenko fight, I think it's more likely the fight happens in 2019, not too late, because the fight hasn't been talked about for very long, but that gives the fight plenty of time to be built up. The biggest potential problem to spoil the fight, I think is weight, Lomachenko keeps calling Garcia out, and I'll tell you for nothing, Garcia would fight anyone, he considered going to 154 to fight Cotto. Lomachenko can forget making Mikey Garcia quit, no disrespect to Walters, Rigondeaux, but Garcia isn't quitting, and it would take some beating/boxing lesson for Robert G to pull his brother out of the fight. I'd be interested to see how Lomachenko's footwork, pivots, would clash with Garcia's ability to set guys up, make them vulnerable to a big shot, I mean if you look at the way he timed that uppercut which he hot Broner with, two masterful boxers Lomachenko and Garcia, I'd be rooting for Garcia no doubt, but I'm leaning towards Lomachenko.

It's all about belief, it is a mental thing, Haye never stopped believing he could win, if Rigondeaux believed he could beat Lomachenko, he would have fought with two broken hands, and that hand wasn't even broken and he quit, if Haye had lost belief he was going to somehow win, he would have quit as well, the answer, don't stop believing, that's the million dollar question people are asking of Kell Brook for his comeback.

Yeah good point, that's been a hindrance to him, I've taken stick for saying it, but I really don't think he beats Groves, I've never considered him better than Groves.

To be quite honest, so am I. Can't agree on anything he does outside the ring, but I'll certainly second that about him making the heavyweight division more interesting. I think that's the best fight for Joshua, not Fury, not on a win/lose basis, or well being, safety basis. I have to say, that would be quite something, but I've got to be honest, I don't think the fight would be entertaining, Fury, in shape, prepared, mentally stable, can give Joshua problems, still has great attributes, can still hurt Joshua, but I think whatever happens, he'll get taken to pieces in that fight. I still don't think Fury deserves that opportunity, but I can't call myself a boxing fan and say I'm 100% against that fight, because I'm not, their styles would clash in an interesting way, early, I think Fury would take the lead, but this is a gruelling sport, and I think Fury will always have a certain vulnerability in the ring.

Eh up man I didn't know Gmsanders was your cousin!! I remember him talking to my on my Mayweather vs Pacquiao scorecard once, top guy, but yeah we don't see so much of him on here, and yeah that sounds like a good plan, saves you the hastle of messing around with new accounts and verification codes and all that clap trap.

That's how all athletes are I feel. It's good to keep improving and wanting to get better. Especially when you are jumping up in weight. They were saying the win wasn't all that great was because he was smaller and older, although it is right but they had to of known this before the fight was made, and why pick him if age and size were a factor? That's like me picking Fury to beat Joshua in fury's return fight and when Joshua wins say of course that was going to happen Fury hasn't fought in 2 years. People were saying that Rigondeaux would school Lomachenko now that he lost they are coming up with excuses. I think the Garcia fight be harder to make now that Garcia is fighting Lipnets at 140 for the world title. Maybe if Lomachenko fights all next year at 135, does well, moves up at 140 and fights him at 140 it could work. I think the fight would be best made at 135 in my opinion. I don't think Garcia would quit if he fights Lomachenko, if he does that would be a huge statement. I don't think Robert would let him quit because he let Margarito go 12 with Pacquiao when he had a serious injury. I also want to throw Crawford in the mix with them to, those 3 can make great fights.

That's true, and Rigondeaux just seemed frustrated that he couldn't do anything against him and looked for a way out. His hand was revealed to have a bruise but no break. I really want to see how Brook looks in his return.

He adds excitement to the division. I like the Joshua fight for Fury, but not immideatly of course. I think Wilder and Fury are great for Joshua i think some reasons might make both fights better then others. Fury has been out for a while and he needs to work his way back into coming a contender.

He didn't tell you? I thought he would. Now the problem is he deleted it and it doesn't work anymore so I have to try somethng else now.

Champion97's picture

I wouldn't say that, maybe, I think maybe to a degree, but I'm not sure all athletes are as self critical as Lomachenko. It's what we talked about before, people don't like to be impressed, they like to be negative. No I don't think so, not at all I don't think, I just that's too much of a jump, that's 14lbs more than when he fought Russell, and later fights, he is no 140 lb fighter, I don't even think Mikey Garcia is as good at 140 as he is at 135, he is fighting at 140 because he can't get the fights at 135, with Flanagan too scared, and Linares, occupied, no I think it absolutely has to be at 135. He'd let a fighter quit I think, you can't force a fighter to fight, and he would pull a fighter out if he was showing serious signs of concern regarding his safety, he just won't pull a fighter out because they are taking an agonising beating. I don't think Crawford vs Lomachenko should happen, I think there is a point when enough is enough, on the other hand, if it makes financial sense, it might still go ahead, and Crawford vs Garcia, absolutely. I'd like to see Crawford vs Lomachenko as much as the next guy, but in all realism, at 135, how does Crawford compete? at 140, how does Lomachenko compete?, the weight situation is tticky enough as it is I think with Lomachenko vs Garcia, but they could agree ti fight at 135, and that could be a possibility, and Crawford vs Garcia, I think they'd meet at 140, but I just don't see, logistically, how Crawford vs Lomachenko could work, you sort of wish though don't you, that they were just a few pounds closer in size, and the fight could happen, I just think it's going too far when a welterweight and a bantamweight have a common opponent, like when people were trying to bully GGG into moving up 175 to fight Ward, Kovalev, that way, Brook, a welterweight, Ward, a light heavyweight, would have a common opponent, enough is enough I say.

I do criticise Rigondeaux, I don't want to sound harsh, but if Paul Smith can meet Andre Ward centre ring, give it everything, fight until his face is bust up, his trainer has little choice but to throw in the towell, before the fight, he said, "I have just a puncher's chance?, that's all I need", if he can have the desire, self belief to go through that, why couldn't Rigondeaux?, he should not have stopped believing, he should have toughed it out, push, shove Lomachenko if he has to, headbutt him, hit him low whatever, if you can't fight clean, it is a fight afterall, but anything but quit, it was very disappointing, but it wasn't about physical pain, it was about knowing he couldn't win. Rigondeaux wouldn't have quit had his hand been hurting twice as bad, but he beleieved he could win, that's the key here. He's not going to be as good as he was, but I don't think he's shot, a lot of it, I think depends on his mental state, but no he's still early thirties, he could have a couple of good years left.

I still think Hearn wants Wilder away from Joshua until he's old, and I do not blame him. Why risk losing stardom?, it's what I think they call quitting while you're ahead, I don't expect them to flat out admit it, but they know it, Wilder is a threat, Fury is a dream fight for Joshua though, not dangerous, and he's vulnerable, big money, why not? And will he stay on track? What kind of a number has his inconsistency outside of the ring done on him? I think when Fury is 30, he'll be an old 30. Call me immature, but everytime we talk about Fury, even now he is getting his licence back, I get the urge to find him and punch him, haha.

No. Ah sorry, these computer issues usually sort themselves out in the end though.

Matthysse vs Kiram who you got?

Maybe not critical, but always wanting to improve. Like Antonio Brown, he is a football player and is in the running for the mvp which is awarded for the best player in the league, he said that he likes the consideration but there's more work to be done. The jump might not be as bad if he does it the right way. Fight at 135 for a few fights, take an easy one at 140 to the test the division. With Flanagan, I think Robert Easter beats him. I think Garcia does as well along with Linares. The weight situation is interesting now, you have Crawford at 147, Mikey at 140, and Loma at 130. There needs to be something that can get them all to fight. I think if Lomachenko moves up to 140 it could be possible, because I heard a rumor saying Lomachneko might be skipping 135 and go straight to 140. With that it makes the Crawford and Mikey fights more possible, but the question is how good Lomachenko is at 140.That's a good point about a bantamweight and welterweight have a common opponent. That could be said with Floyd Mayeather and a bantamweight. I'm not saying that in a negative light because he fought Manny Pacquiao who fought a bantamweight before.

I get what you mean. I think Rigondeaux should've made a push to win. The thing is, Rigondeaux should of made some adjustments in the fight to. He should of tried to make it a scrappy fight with Lomachenko and fight dirty as well.

I don't like that gameplan to be honest, waiting for a fighter to get older. It leaves too much to the imagination like "what if they fought how would've it went in their prime?"Fury I think is the bigger money fight, and Wilder is the fight fans fight. There's still a lot to be answered on Furys return I think we should watch him before we rush for judgement.

I got Matthysse what about you?

Champion97's picture

Yeah absolutely, there is always room for improvement. Who Lomachenko?, I personally, really do not think so, I don't have a crystal ball, I'm also not a genius, so I could be wrong, but I think that's a terrible idea for Lomachenko, I mean, let's remember what we're talking about here, Lomachenko fighting Crawford, I don't see on earth how he can afford a disadvantage like that, it's a physical impossibility for him to do well, by his own standards at 140. Yeah I think because Mikey still has a belt at 135, he can nip back down, take on Lomachenko at a compromise of a 135 battle, but that is the only way the fight could work. Like I say, I don't see how Crawford vs Lomachenko, realistically is a good idea. Well if that is rumour is true, Lomachenko isn't as intelligent as well all thought, I mean that's a stupid idea if you ask me, people want to see these fights, well I think people should settle for what they can see rather than talk about unrealistic fights, forgetting Crawford vs Lomachenko, a fighter who has well outgrown lightweight against a guy who has built up to the division below, and has competed at a lower division. Lomachenko vs Berchelt, Lomachenko vs Davis, Crawford vs Spence, Crawford vs Thurman, let's just look forward to these fights, hoping and assuming they happen. That's really why I think Pacquiao can't be looked at as a clean fighter, 8 weight divisions, whether you turn pro at 16 or not, that's suspicious.

His adaptability was tested, and sadly, he didn't pass the test, it was always a bad idea taking the fight at 130, we both said that from the outset, I assumed it was going to happen at 126, had that been the case, I don't think Rigondeaux would have been out classed like that, but I still, think Lomachenko would have won, not only the younger fighter, but also the more seasoned, progressed professional, Rigondeaux, maybe really, still a top amateur, a great pro, but not a top pro, Lomachenko, adapting, learning very well, it might be like comparing Lara to Ward.

That's a good point, if you can answer questions, answer them, I like that way of thinking, but nevertheless, fighters will always try to fight opponents at the right time. I agree, I expect him to look good in his next two fights, for 3-4 rounds against Joshua, hypothetically speaking, but I agree, although I do think it is quite predictable, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't able to look good against that Hammer/Chisora level of opposition.

I think Kiram is going to upset Matthysse. I think it is so interesting, Matthysse, having competed at the far, far higher level, with a couple of outstanding attributes, being the established threat, as quite possibly the hardest hitting welterweight on the planet, he's the favourite, understandably, but Kiram, 38-0, 10 years on Matthysse, let's see if he can take his boxing, fighting ability up to that level, Matthysse has had his best days, but is the difference in levels of competition just so big that Kiram will find himself in deeper waters than he can handle?, it is a massive leap up in class, I think he'll pull out the upset 55/45, it is an interesting fight.

Good one adding Giant Lomachenko vs Briedis.

I think it could be bad to if he goes straight up to 140. We don't really know what would happen if this actually happens. I think Mikey would do the fight with Loma at 135, and that benefits both really. Because Lomachenko doesn't have to jump 2 weight classes, and Mikey Garcia is best at 135. Lomachenko vs Crawford seems more unrealistic for a few reasons, but if Lomachenko looks good at 140 I wouldn't be against it. You are also right, we should look forward to fights that are more realistic.

I thought it was a bad idea to go to 130 for the fight. I think he took the fight because the clock is ticking and took it however he could. I just think there was a lot that went wrong with Rigondeaux's career that made it hard for him to fulfill his potential.

That's true, fans hate it but that's what happens. In a sense it's a good thing because you can't take tough fights after tough fights. I'm interested to see what Fury can do in his return.

That could happen, Matthysse has been in very grueling fights throughout his career, and that could take a toll on him. I think he might be a level above Kiram, and that's what makes me lean towards Matthysse in this fight.

Thanks, also what did you think of Saunders performance this weekend?

Champion97's picture

Lost my reply earlier.

Still disagree on Lomachenko at 140.
Agree on Fury and Joshua. Also agree on Rigondeaux.

Great performance
Best I've seen from BJS, better than I said, but not as good as UK media say he is. Lem a live opponent, dangerous, but apart from being a puncher, he isn't nearly great, so outboxing him didn't say much about Saunders, however, sustaining that pace, punishing, out fighting, inflicting versatile attacks on the heavy handed Canadian, that was impressive. Still don't think Saunders top 5, could be wrong, and very strong division. Lemieux sportsmanship after fight, so bad you didn't know whether to laugh or not.

I thought the performance was great. Best Saunders performance I have seen in a while. To be honest outside of power Lemieux is a very limited fighter like you said. I thought that Saunders would get the stoppage at some point, he had Lemieux hurt at some ponts during the fight. What did Lemieux say after the fight? I left after the 12th round and didn't see any post fight interviews.

Champion97's picture

Yeah so we can't give him too much credit. I didn't think so, he hurt him, because Lemieux is so poor defensively, and can't telegraph shots, he takes everything full force.

It was more just his manner, what he didn't say, and the way he made the excuses, he said something along the lines of, "I hurt my hand early, I was without it for the rest of the fight, Billy Joe just ran all night didn't fight me, if that's what gets him the decision, he did enough to win" it was just outrageous the way he said it as if he expecting people not to think he was out of order.

Did you see Celdin vs Ulysse?

That's what I mean he can't telegraph shots well so shots looked worse then they did.

Oh yeah I did hear that. That is some poor sportsmanship. I think he was embarrassed by his bad performance.

I saw parts of it, still need to see the full fight.

Champion97's picture

Not only that as well, when you walk into shots, you almost double the impact, that's what happened with Pacquiao against Marque in 2012, and Klitschko drew Joshua onto the right hand he floored him with. Mayweather was always great at telegraphing shots, that's why Maidana didn't look like a big puncher against him the first time, against all his other opponents, Maidana, you could see the impact when he landed clean, but against Mayweather, he looked more just rugged, awkward, strong, but not like such a puncher.

Yeah he was, he was humiliated by the far better boxer, granted, a bully outside of the ring, OK, not a nice guy, he doesn't deserve credit, but he could have been the better person, he stooped to Saunders's level. I'm not sure that was even just about Saunders, he wasn't much more gracious in defeat against Golovkin.

I know I normally say I have no interest in pre fig t time chit chat, post fight interviews which get heated, fiery, probably partly staged, confrontational press conferences, etc, and I'm only interested in boxing, but some of that showboating, man that was funny, comedy fight at times, but overall, what a performance from Ulysse, Seldin can fight, he can punch, but that only goes so far in boxing when you have limited technical ability, a bit like Lem,

Nice one adding Okolie vs Chamb

Exactly. Also, Maidanas style is the one to beat a boxer that is good like a Mayweather, Crawford or Lomachenko. You have to not care about the other guys skills and just make it a scrappy fight and not care about rules either. I think it takes a style like that to beat a boxer.

I think Saunders got in Lemieux's head and that's what made him stoop to his level after. That happens to me where there is a nasty person and it brings out the worst in me, I'm not always like that but certain people can bring that out.

Ulysse had a great performance. I didn't even follow the press conferences. I'm all for trash talking every now and then though. I like when the rivalry is legitimite and not staged, like Morales and Barrera. I also enjoy when rivals show respect to each other like Pacquiao and Marquez did during their 4 fights, never trash talked just put on classic fights. It's a shame when you got entertaining fighters like Seldin, but are limited technically. It seems like Seldin and Lemieux are very limited and will always struggle with boxers.

Since the year is basically over for boxing I'm going to give you a few award categories.

Fighter of the year

Fight of the year

Ko of the year

Prospect of the year

Champion97's picture

It is a little bit like what Truax did against Degale, what Bundu did against Gavin, it is partly a mental thing, but yeah it is about a fighter establishing dominance.

Same with me, people are just people, humans, nobody is perfect, it
people try to bring out the worst in us, for various reasons, they succeed. Bullies are bullies, it is an issue that is hard to tackle, but it is something I'm going to do a lot to try to stop in the future.

I don't know, to a degree, but no sadder than a fighter being technically sound, but not thriving in the trenches, for whatever reasons.

OK cool.


Joshua vs Klitschko

Mikey Garcia against Dean Zlaticanin

Daniel Dubois, or maybe Dmitry Bivol, Josh Taylor maybe. Final answer Taylor.

What about you?


It sucks because I hate being like that. Bullying is one of those issues that isn't easy to solve, I wish you the best on what you do.

That's also sad to.

Fighter of the year- Crawford

Fight of the year- Joshua vs Klitschko

Ko of the year- Mikey Garcia ko of Zlaticanin

Prospect of the year- Josh Taylor

Champion97's picture

Thanks man. One of the things I want kids to understand is that bullying does not have to be vicious verbal attacks, cyber bullying, violence, discrimination, just this whole "popular kids" business, excluding kids from a certain social group, that position power and helplessness, that can damage someone for life, just last year, that guy who went on a shooting spree in Munich, he was a bullying victim.

So same as me, exactly, cool, I also think Crawford vs Indongo was up there for KO OTY.

I might have asked you this before, but do not think Sherman Williams would be the perfectly ideal opponent for Daniel Dubois, 14 losses, 44 years old, not so active, so it isn't a step too far, Williams has been in against Charr, Parker, Holyfield, and more importantly, though defeated many times, he hasn't been stopped since 1999, so that is a new target for Dubois, he needs rounds, if he stops Williams, what a statement, if I can think of that idea, Frank Warren should be able to, with Eddie hearn, Dubois would be fighting Williams, or an even more ideal opponent, with Warren, it's just more and more wasteful fight slots, same with Yarde, man, Warren sucks.

Cuadras vs Arroyo should be a good one, also, Frampton vs Donaire.

Exactly there's different forms of it and people need to be made aware of it.

Yeah. Only one I had trouble on prospect of the year. It was between Dubois and Taylor, and I gave Taylor the edge because of the Davies win.

Not a good opponent at all. It is a fight that doesn't do much for Dubois. That just shows how Hearn is better at preparing fighters then Warren is. Hearn seems to get the right fights for his prospects.

Both very good fights.

Champion97's picture

I do think Williams is the perfect opponent for Dublin at this current time though. Well look at Okolie and Chamberlain, they aren't having good years wasted, Terry Flanagan, his career is going nowhere.

I think Donaire and Cuadras win.

Okolie and Chamberlain are getting right fights at the right time. I looked at Flanagans boxrec he really hasn't fought a huge name. I think it's time for him to step up, I think as a champion he's faced weak opposition.

That's interesting. I'm picking Frampton and Cuadras.

Champion97's picture

Yeah he's bad for the division, Mikey Garcia is a very nice guy, never even he said Flanagan is a fool, and a bitch, I mean, he ducked Garcia, I'm 95% sure Campbell beats him just as Jacobs beats Saunders, it's Frank Warren, he hides fighters, and Boxnation, lying about how good performances are from these guys, according to Mr Bunce, Flanagan beat Petrov 12-0 and Saunders beat Monroe 12-0, chatting rubbish if you ask me. Flanagan, like Saunders, nasty, not saying he as bad as Saunders, but he talks rubbish, and doesn't show willing to fight other champions, there aren't enough mandatories or good enough mandatories from the WBO.

Frampton was not impressive against Garcia, I think we've seen the best of him now, I actually thought he might have been edged out by a round, Donaire though, also not the fighter he used to be, maybe Frampton does have what it takes to beat him.

Cuadras is training at the Big Bear I believe, interesting to see what positive impact that has on him as a fighter.

I must have asked you this before, sorry, but Golovkin vs Canelo II, who wins?

He was supposed to fight Verdejo but that fell through because of an injury to Verdejo, so he can't be at fault for that, but other fights he should make an effort to make them happen. I'm not a big fan of Flanagan honestly.

I still have to see the Garcia fight, but from what I heard Frampton struggled. They are both fighters that are not what they once was, I feel Frampton has more left in the tank.

I think it will.

I'm leaning towards Golovkin, what about you?

Champion97's picture

Yeah true, ultimately, he deserves respect, maybe I was harsh, I just think there are guys in his division who are better than him, who do not have titles, and because I don't think he is a nice guy, I don't like that.

He was awful. Could be so, he's lost less fights, is he younger?, but I just think Donaire was better at his best than Frampton was at his best, I think Magdelano, Walters, they are a level above Garcia, who was supposed to be, as you say, a tune up. I just think Frampton comes off worse more often in exchanges, and he can be vulnerable, and bad patches when he is beaten about. Donaire can really punch.

Definitely Canelo I think, possible improvement, certainly not decline, with his discipline, desire, age, whereas Golovkin, his legs, punch resistance, stamina, speed, all dipping. If Golovkin wins the fight, I'll be shocked, it is far from impossible, if he has the brain, the resources, to make the much better adjustments than Canelo, and use what he learned from the first fight better than Canelo, he could win, I just doubt that if this is even the case which it might not be, it doesn't outweigh age, and if anyone will benefit weight wise relative to the first fight, that'll be Alvarez. In my opinion, if Golovkin was going to beat Canelo, he would have done it in September, it is frustrating for his fans if true, because I think he was unfortunate not to get the win, I think he beat Canelo. One thing I will say, is that if Golovkin could steal the early rounds from Canelo, have a good start, he increases his chances a lot, because he should come on strong mid-late again.